Justice 4 ALL Madeleine McCann Family
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Your opinion please

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Your opinion please

Post by Wanderer on Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:48 pm

I've read that some people are beginning to believe that the 'evidence' found by the dogs in the apartment and car may have been planted. What do you think? Is this why amaral was removed from the case? Is this why his colleagues didn't even say good bye to him on his last day? Is this a possibility?

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Re: Your opinion please

Post by Pedro Silva on Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:53 pm

I have to say my friend Wanderer, that thought has come to my mind several times. And still does, and who knows if Gonzo and someone else has planted them.

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Re: Your opinion please

Post by Wanderer on Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:56 pm

hello pedro. thnks for your reply. its come into my mind too over the last week or so. maybe gonzo was getting desperate and decided to help the case along a bit. it may also explain why the fss changed their mind about the evidence? worth a thought.

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Re: Your opinion please

Post by sadie on Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:08 pm

Exactly my thoughts Wanderer. I wonder too about the Madeleine scent trails the dogs were supposed to have followed which took the dark quiet route around the Apartment block to where the little car park was. Aparantly the scent from someone (Madeleine) carried is so slight that it does not lie there for long. Yet these dogs picked it up considerably later?!?! Could it have been falsely laid?

Of course the car park contained the big waste bins. The trail could be useful for framing Gerry at a later date. Not saying it was deliberate for that purpose, but makes you think, doesn't it?
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Re: Your opinion please

Post by sadie on Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:11 pm

And then there is the (deliberate?) leaving out of the time that the Smith family saw the man carrying the little girl. Some small adjustments to information and that could be Gerry couldn't it? Makes you wonder about the motives of the PJ.
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Re: Your opinion please

Post by sadie on Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:13 pm

Added to that is the fact that the PJ chose to ignore JT's sighting and say there were NO indicators to abduction. Mmmmmmmm, makes youn think!
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Re: Your opinion please

Post by Pedro Silva on Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:34 pm

Or someone in is involved in the abduction (nor saying all of them, but, Gonzo, who knows) or they didn´t expected that the case were known worldwide, and Gonzo (this is just a thought) thought to himself: "hey, this is a good chance for me to become a celebriity, or to raise money by writting a book, but, for that, I´m going to turn the wheel against the parents, the case will be closed and I write a book, and earn amount of money, then I´ll retire myself and spent my days signing the book (of lies)". By looking for what he, Gonzo, as done it his book at several countries, this is what he makes people wonder. I say again, what a police officer, whose expertise is drug dealers, understands or knows of abductions, because, my friends, what we have here is an abduction, and her parents are totally innocent, of this I´m sure, 100%.

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Re: Your opinion please

Post by sadie on Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:36 pm

And then there is the strange phenomena whereby the dogs initially failed to find scent on Cuddlecat. In fact, the one dog threw it up in the air as a toy. Yet some considerable period later, when the Mccanns had moved to a villa, the dog (was it Eddie?) found such a strong scent on cuddlecat that he identified it through the doors of the cupboard where it lay.

Strange isn't it? If it weren't for the upright Amaral and the impecable Portomao PJ, you could almost be forgiven for wondering if something underhand was going on. Now, we must forget that. Amaral could never stoop to such a thing and after all he is an expert and he wrote a whole book about it. I am sure it is explained fully in there.

Whats the name of the substance that they use to train the dogs with?
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Re: Your opinion please

Post by Wanderer on Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:49 pm

i think its called cadaverine and apparently can be purchased from places like hunting shops. do they do hunting in portugal pedro?

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Re: Your opinion please

Post by clairesy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:05 pm

One thing that's always bothered me about these cops(amongst most things!!)............Kate and Gerry were befriended by a cop during their holiday.He was ment to have eaten at the tapas with them and also alowed his children to play with the mccann children....who was he??Apparently the cop was okay with them until Madeleine was taken ...then couldn't even look them in the face when Kate appeared at the police station in the hours/days after her abduction. Why not???Maybe he was being professional although the way the pj have behaved during this case i find it hard to believe.
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Re: Your opinion please

Post by honestbroker on Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:10 pm

I'm cursing roundly here because I've just typed a reply, clicked the wrong button and lost it. I have other business to attend to, just now.

But briefly, I think there has been a lot of honest policing in this investiation and I think we should separate the wheat from the chaff. But I certainly don't rule out bad apples and particuarly I do rule in the suggestion of Wanderer's opening post. I'll return to this and expand.

But my short answer to Wanderer's question is 'yes'.

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Re: Your opinion please

Post by Wanderer on Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:21 pm

look forward to hearing your opinion honestbroker

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Re: Your opinion please

Post by Pedro Silva on Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:04 am

Yes, they do hunting at Portugal, when the right season comes.

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Re: Your opinion please

Post by sadie on Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:11 am

Hey,I have just done a long post, too and it's vanished! It takes me ages in one finger typing.

Think that I am going to write it in 'word' in future and copy up. Gotta have a nap now! Old age, every time I eat I go tired!
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Re: Your opinion please

Post by honestbroker on Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:13 am

Seconds out, round 2. Honest policing ubdoubtedly. Remember the files run to 30,000 pages and, beyond doubt, there will have been many contributors. About one-sixth of that total output has been released and I personally have read only a very small proportion of what's publicly available. But I acknowledge that what I have read impresses me as evidence-based, factual and not the least bit contrived. I don't see any evidence of a conscious attempt to distort or misrepresent. In particular whoever wrote what was, in effect, musings on a computer screen about the reactions of Eddie expressed exactly the puzzlement (I might, almost, say misgivings) so many of us have also expressed, about the length of time it took Eddie to react to the car, and also why Eddie reacted to cuddlecat only after it had been hidden. Whichever PJ officer wrote that was clearly not part of any conspiracy, and was clearly objectively viewing a spectacle that puzzled him. We should be grateful that he committed his musings to the files for us all to read.

As to Eddie's reaction to the car, I can think of only one explanation incriminating of the McCanns to explain it: transference of the death scent from clothing to the driver's seat. Here's why I reject that theory. Gerry did most of the driving. The scent was (apparently) found, alone, on Kate's clothing. OK, Kate might have driven the car, too, but then, when they were in the car together and Kate was in the front passenger's seat, why did she not transfer the scent to the passenger's side of the car?

Then there's the flower bed. Amaral, in his book, has it that Eddie's reaction to the flowerbed was soft or uncertain. Martin Grimes explicitly rejects any such voodoo hocus-pocus! He is emphatic on the point: Eddie either reacts (to that of which he is certain) or he doesn't! with any apparent variation such as a 'soft' reaction having a physiological explanation such as thirst or lack of oxygen due to vigorous physical exercise. So Eddie detected the death scent in the flower bed? How did it get there? We can rule out that the flower bed would have been dug up and relayed twice to inter, then exhume, Madeleine's body without evidence having been left. So how? There are no obvious answers.

In one interview by Amaral I have read, Amaral is at pains to stress that Kate, not Gerry, found Madeleine's body. He wasn't there to witness it. But the assertion is crucial to the support of the apparent 'find' of the death scent on Kate's clothing.

Erm ... you know, who buried Madeleine? Who exhumed her? Why wasn't there the death scent on the front passenger's side of the car? How about an explanation of all these queries that involves duplicity and skulduggery? I certainly don't rule it out! St Goncalo would never have had a pretext for his book without the barks of Eddie!!!

But a plea. Please, please, do not tar the whole of the PJ with the same rotten, sticking, fetid brush. They don't all deserve it.

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Re: Your opinion please

Post by Wanderer on Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:45 am

thank you for your post honestbroker and i would agree with all of what you've said.

there are many questions about the dogs evidence which just doesn't add up imo. i believe that the majority of the portuguese police did the very best they could to investigate this case in a fair and honest manner. however they were led by amaral who had decided early on that there was just one answer to the missing child and i think that it is just possible that the scent was planted to help that answer along. i have pondered on whether this was the real reason that amaral was removed from the case and why the fss changed their minds as to the strength of the evidence and then stated that it had been destroyed. it would also explain why amaral left the force after an apparently impeccable career with no farewell from his colleagues.

i think that neither portugal nor britain would have wanted this to become public knowledge therefore a 'solution' was found whereby the case was shelved pending further developments.


Last edited by Wanderer on Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:47 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling error)

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Re: Your opinion please

Post by Guest on Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:57 am

You are quite right HB, good post. My opinion has always been that as Amaral was in charge,the incompetance lays at this feet. I have not seen anything out of order from the Pj who took over and from the files they tried to investigate a case that had lost investigative momentum because of Amaral.


Th original question, Wanderer. I have wondered for a long time, of course no facts, if psuedo scent was planted. I did suggest this once on Sky as a possibility to throw into everything else that was being discussed. But nobody would even consider it.

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Re: Your opinion please

Post by clairesy on Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:50 am

Hm does smell like a set up doesn't it. Thing is if someone planted death scent somewhere to set up the mccanns then they would also plant in in other places so that when found by dogs...it would apparently unfold a sordid story of a small child's death. Thing is as honest b pointed out..the flower bed details just don't add up...not soft not disturbed etc but yet death scent....how come..she weren't buried there if she feel and landed then surly the flower bed would have been disturbed...
Nahh this (imo) as always stinks of a cover up.And probably the reason that British detectives weren't allowed to help in pdl until months later. takes time to set it up i suppose.all those forensic guys??What were they doing in the bushes and surrounding area...trying to find evidence or trying to plant it?

IM not suggesting for one Minuit that every forensic guy/women and every member of the Portuguese police force are corrupt,but was there one or two guys/gals within that team planting evidence ready to be found by the British dogs??

thing is with Madeleine's case as made such an impact on the world........right from the very start.did they expect that??Did they think their shoddy investigating would be enough to fool the mccanns..they bit off more than they can chew this time imo???

The case was a shambles some major pathetic so called mistakes were made and the mccanns little girl fell deeper into this mess than anyone could have ever thought.As time goes on the world gets more and more agitated at no leads or positive results from the Portuguese.In the end british cops were also feeling the frustration and asked to go to help................UH-OH!!!!!!.........and the incompetent police force said no????

Why no???You have a bloody missing child of 3 years of age...........a baby.......you have no leads .............nothing at all on this childs abductors and you turn down the help of the worlds best sniffer dogs????

come on!!! Puuurleas don't tell me there aint a reason for that refusal for British help. It was months later that they allowed British cops in with their dogs...and law and behold........bobs your uncle................all this bleeding evidence come flying out from under their noses!!!!Blood here there and everywhere................dna here there and everywhere....dogs going frantic at the smell of death around every corner.And this....................all this...................was missed by the Portuguese and their dogs????

PMSL....its a load of cock and bull. And they know it is.And so do the mccanns i reckon...thats why they are fighting hammer and tooth to get the b@@@ds that have took their baby girl.Good luck to them.

IMO its a set up..The poor mccanns and their lovely little girl Madeleine have in my opinion been treated like sh/t by the very poeple ment to be helping them......and all because they are trying to cover up for the bloody person/s who have her.

MAYBE NOT ALL OF THEM......BUT SOMEONE WITHIN THAT TEAM KNOWS ABOUT MADELEINE.THATS MY BELIEFE..MIGHT NOT BE FACT..BUT ITS MY BELIEFE.

Why are they doing this???Is they on the payroll????Is there a big fat cheque waiting in the pipelines after all this is done and dusted(NEVER WILL BE, SO FORGET IT)...........

Shame on those who know where Madeleine is..... you gutless b@@tards.



ps.if theres any spelling mistakes im sorry im in a rush and am annoyed so typed quite fast!!XXX
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Re: Your opinion please

Post by sadie on Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:02 am

I am looking forward to your ideas as well HB. They are always well researched, deeply thought out and well written. You are quite correct; the PJ have done a great deal of work and I should not have generalised as I did.

However historically, as in this case, there have been some disturbing happenings.

The PJ Portomao have got an outrageous record for lost child/abduction cases.

Look at the the Michael Cook and Leanor Cipriano cases; they were both convicted on seemingly false evidence. Both cases involved convictions based upon the evidence of ‘witnesses’, each of whom has since retracted his evidence, I understand. Now my experience of the Portuguese People is that they are very straight and honourable. I ask myself, “did two absolutely independent people just come forward and offer to give false witness, or were they persuaded in some way”?


Now we all know about Leanor Cipriano and her apparent beating up (causing her to be blinded for about a month) before she finally ‘confessed’. And the shaky evidence about blood in the fridge (pigs blood?) and the cutting up of the body and the feeding of it to the pigs and the (supposed) incestuous relationship, which Joana was reported to have stumbled across (no evidence, of course). This caused Uncle Joao and Mother Leanor to murder her according to Amaral and Co (within Portomao PJ)?


Englishman, Michael Cooks case is not so well known. He spent the largest part of 16 years in jail being raped, beaten and stabbed (6 times). He had previously apparently endured a similar beating up by the Portomao PJ before he was jailed. It is reported that along with other damage, he lost a tooth and went before the courts in clothes soaked in urine and faeces; he wasn’t allowed the loo or sleep for a couple of days.

In his case, the evidence given by the false witness, ‘eyewitness’-connected him to the spot where Rachel Charles’ body was found. This was a major factor in the incrimination. The man who ‘witnessed’ this has now retracted his statement. Michael Cook was supposed to have taken his car to the murder/burial spot. However, the tyre marks there did not match his car!! Also his car did not have sufficient ground clearance to have traversed the ground to where the body was, and where the car was seen’ by the ‘witness’!! Again Portomao PJ……… but we do not know if Amaral and Co were part of this scenario, do we?


Undoubtedly there are many very good PJ officers. Look at the PJ officer who was the original TV spokesman; he had integrity. Look at Rebelo; he had integrity too and look at all the hard ground work that the rest of the PJ did in PdL



Now to get back to Amarals lot (I can’t be sure they all are Amarals crew but they all operated out of Portomao, I believe.)

Rene Hasee (beautiful blonde little boy, almost a male clone of Madeleine) went missing from the beach. His parents afterwards complained that little had been done to try and find him. Maybe they are lucky to have gone back to Germany so quickly, because, maybe, they would be languishing in a Portuguese jail had they kicked up more fuss. They return to the Algarve every year to search for him.

CarolinaSantos. An abductor was seen holding her hand and walking off with her. Fortunately she was rescued before she vanished. This was just three weeks after Madeleine disappeared and at the nearby town of Silves. The Portamao PJ were not really interested and there was later publicity put about, that it hadn’t really happened……… I wonder………?



Clairesy, I had similar thoughts to you, but came to the conclusion that it could mean one of several things:[/size

  • [size=12]That the cop was embarrassed because he knew the Mccanns were about to be stitched up
  • That he thought he should keep business away from pleasure - professionalism
  • That he had been warned off his friendship with them
  • That he had been deliberately planted as a friend for info*** [/size



    [size=12]Thanks Wanderer,…… cadaverine. As Pedro says hunting is quite big time in Portugal



    Pedro. Your thoughts ring loud and true. He likes fame, does our friend Amaral; he is not so keen on work though. Methinks he likes money too. He has a degree, so he can’t be such a dumbo that he is unable to solve any of these crimes, can he? Especially as he is reputed to be such a whiz kid at solving drug crimes………… Hmmm, me wonders if there are dozens of innocents languishing in jail, wrongly convicted of drug crimes? Nobody is going to listen to the protestations of a druggie are they?


    Hey, he has a wonderful imagination. Bet he could make a fortune writing fiction like his friend Pereira Christovao. Maybe that’s what he will do in jail, write books? Unless he is found Not guilty, of course



    Back to Madeleine and the Mccanns

    Now the car:

    Anyone who has seen the longer video of the dog (was it Keela?) in action around the cars must doubt the way that sniffing out exercise was done. Why has the shorter video been released, rather than the longer one? What are they trying to hide? Why should they try and implicate the Mccanns? Are they trying to keep the abductor safely away from investigation and why? It just doesn’t make sense to me.



    HB has already given an excellent account of why the scents found (possibly falsely laid) have no scientific bearing on the case. Even should the scents be proved genuine, then as HB has found, nothing can be proved from them. What’s it all about? Why did the PJ keep pushing them forward? Who are they trying to protect and why? So many questions unanswered


    Seems to me that if a guy can deliberately spread disinformation about the Mccanns, then there is little reason why he wouldn’t spread deliberately incriminating false evidence to convict them. Makes his life easy; gives him fame; maybe pleases a senior officer who has deviant tastes; maybe covers up for someone powerful; maybe it is a nice little earner…………..I could go on…………..and then, maybe, I am completely wrong. Maybe my name is Keela!!!


    ***

    I am not sure whether the Mccanns were befriended by the cop before or after the abduction. If before, this could imply that he was deliberately planted to get information about their habits when eating; in that case there could be a link with the abductor. If after, this could imply that the PJ were putting a spy in the camp in order to hear anything which might incriminate K and G or any of the Tapas 9. Of course, the most likely scenario is that they just got on well together and he enjoyed socializing and speaking English with his new British friends.
  • I am so slow. It has taken me so long to type this up that much of what i have said has been already said in a much better way than I have managed. Maybe I have added some little bits.



    All the above thoughts are only that. They are simply my ideas based upon previous knowledge and information. They may or may not be correct.


Last edited by sadie on Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:10 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I am so slow; its all been said before!)
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Re: Your opinion please

Post by Pedro Silva on Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:07 am

If Rebelo had some integrity, what he should done was to answer Mrs. McCann letter of appeal, in which she begs to him, to stop focus the investigation on her and her husband, and instead focussed only in finding Madeleine, because that was what he had the obligation and duty of carried out. Did he answered that letter? No he didn´t. Did he stop the focus on her parents? No he didn´t. Did he find Madeleine? No he didn´t. For me, this is no integrity about a police officer. And that makes my blood boil of hate and disbelief about PJ.
pullinghairout pullinghairout
My friends. PJ sucks. Sadly, with all these incompetences, Madeleine is not with her parents, we don´t know where she is, how she is, her parents are not with her.
walkinghomecrying tissues

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Re: Your opinion please

Post by Pedro Silva on Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:16 am

All this stupidity, all this incompetence, really ###### me off. I´m really pissed. Thanks to PJ b*****ds (not all of, one or two), we don´t know how Madeleine, with whom she is, how she is, where she is. You call this integrity? I call this bullshit.
computer :compsmash: pullinghairout

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Re: Your opinion please

Post by sadie on Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:30 am

Hey Pedro, please stop it! Your hair is all over the place. Anyone got a vacuum cleaner?

Maybe I got the wrong name, Pedro? Now please stop pulling your hair out.

The guy I am talking about is the PJ officer who came in after Amaral and refused to believe his ideas. He is the one who exonerated K and G. It takes integrity to go against a fellow officer who is/was part of the local staion where you are working.

Now please can you tell me the name of this officer, then I can correct my earlier post. Thanks Pedro. Do you want to borrow a brush?
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Re: Your opinion please

Post by Pedro Silva on Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:20 am

I really enjoy that one about the vacuum cleaner, and about the brush too. It really makes me a good laugh, a lot.
Laffin Laffin Laffin Laffin Laffin Laffin Laffin Laffin
Ok, ok, I´m cool, I´m not nervous, not at all, I´m calm, this was just a way to ease my pressure. Pressure´s gone.
Laffin Laffin Laffin Laffin Laffin Laffin Laffin Laffin

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Re: Your opinion please

Post by Pedro Silva on Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:27 am

But you´re right, about the PJ officer who refused to believe Amaral´s ideas. The one who exonerate the couple. It takes integrity to go against a fellow officer who is /was part of the local station where you are working. I agree with you my friend. Although, the vacuum cleaner and the brush do cause me a lot of laughs. bellylaugh bellylaugh bellylaugh bellylaugh bellylaugh bellylaugh

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Re: Your opinion please

Post by sadie on Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:46 am

Hey Pedro, Thats not 6 pictures of you is it (in your 8.27pm posting),....... is it?

You have pulled it all out! You are bald! so sorry I upset you that much! Ooops Ooops Ooops

sadie

PS my vacuum is full, do you want it back?
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Re: Your opinion please

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