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Reconstruction 29th May ? should they stay or should they go!

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Reconstruction 29th May ? should they stay or should they go!

Post by Tinkerbell43 on Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 am

Just offering this up for discussion. Cant stop for now.
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Hiya Tinks - love your avatar

Post by Guest on Fri May 16, 2008 3:02 am

Hiya Flying Fairy

I think the McCanns should do whatever they think is best. If they think they can stand reenacting the whole evening and they think it will do some good then they should go. I did read somewhere though that they were advised by their lawyers not to go to Portugal while they were still arguidos.

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Amazing

Post by Rosie on Fri May 16, 2008 3:46 am

How this subject has come up again on a day when it is reported that the chances of the abduction of Joana Cipriano and Madeleine McCann have a very high chance of being connected.

When was this subject last broached? Oh I know on the day Kate and Gerry were at the EU parliament campaigning for an Amber Alert system for Europe to try and protect children.

Well done PJ can read you morons like a book, in my opinion of course.

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Re: Reconstruction 29th May ? should they stay or should they go!

Post by janeGT on Fri May 16, 2008 5:53 am

:(

return to Portugal?

Only if the Mccanns feel it might help.

I don't. I also think it puts them at risk of being arrested and a witch-hunt. I do not think it is a good idea. Any reconstruction now is stupid... specially when the PJ do not believe Madeleine is alive or was abducted so why? They have their own motives and agenda here I feel.

clearly they must take their lawyer's advice. :evil:
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Re: Reconstruction 29th May ? should they stay or should they go!

Post by Tinkerbell43 on Fri May 16, 2008 6:38 am

If a reconstruction will help Madeleine, I have no doubt Gerry & Kate will do it. Personally, a reconstruction to generate new leads is imo too little too late. It should have been done when Gerry & Kate requested it last year, not 13 months down the line. If I was the McCanns I too would be asking why now. The PJ have not even spoken to them since they returned to the UK 8 months ago. SCANDALOUS!

How can anyone accuse the McCanns of not co-operating, how can you cooperate with someone that is not looking for your daughter. They do not have time to waste and I fear this latest initiative by the PJ is just another time wasting exercise.

If the timelines were so bloody important, why did they take 11 months to reinterview the Tapas7, who I may add, did the reinterviews voluntarily, they didnt have to do them! Lets not forget either, the head of the investigation, didnt even stay around to complete them!

No if I was Kate & Gerry, I think I would only return if the Arguido status was lifted but I'm sure they will receive the right advice on this.


Last edited by Tinkerbell43 on Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Forum revamp - Tinks)
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Re: Reconstruction 29th May ? should they stay or should they go!

Post by Tinkerbell43 on Wed May 21, 2008 9:01 am

I dont know whether Kate & Gerry have made a decision as yet, but according to 24 Horrors, Guilhermino Encarnacao has allegedly said, the reconstruction is important but not crucial to the investigation! Phew thats a relief, cause if it was crucial, 13 months down the line is a little too late imo!!!

This is the same man that allegedly said, in his first press conference, "we have evidence which indicates a kidnap" Hmm, I wonder what happened to that evidence! Another thing I didnt know about Guilhermino Encarnacao, he also worked with Gonc on the Cipriano case. Ever get the feeling they are all as thick as thieves!
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Post by dianeh on Wed May 21, 2008 9:37 am

I think they should definitely not go. There is nothing to be gained by this. The abductor will not be present, and if the Tapas group knew anything they would already have told the police. The police choose not to believe them.

It is in my honest opinion that the PJ have used the need to hold a reconstruction as the reason for extending the secrecy order on this case. That is the only benefit to be had from this reconstruction, and it in no way benefits Madeleine. My reasoning is that the McCanns asked for a recostruction earlier but it was refused. So I deduce that at the time of asking, there was no benefit to the PJ, that is why the request was refused. A second and equally disturing deduction that I have is that the PJ are asking for the reconstruction to once again sully the image of the McCanns. After all, a certain British Tv reporter (Not naming him, as dont have time to find the transcript) said (paraphrase only) that there is only questionable benefits (if any) from a reconstruction at this stage (unless resulting in being televised) but the McCanns will be made to look unco-operative (meaning guilty, hiding something etc) if they dont attend. I also heard a similar thing from another tv reporter.

I will also go so far as to say straight out that any reconstruction is a complete waste of time being held over 12 months after the event. It will show nothing knew and not get the McCanns any closer to getting Madeleine back. I cant see the McCanns being arrested though on returning to Portugal, as without any evidence, no magistrate will allow the case to go to court, let alone the international implications for Portugal of trying to arrest people with no evidence. And if there were evidence, the PJ would not have to wait for the McCanns to go back to Portugal, they could be extradited. How strong a case could there be if it wont stand up to an extradition hearing in Britain? And we all know the answer to that.


Last edited by dianeh on Wed May 21, 2008 10:22 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Tweaking)
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After 13 months...

Post by calcite51 on Wed May 21, 2008 1:21 pm

my intuition tells me the McCanns and the Tapas 7 are being set up to get nailed on the inconsistencies. On a good note, I think the McCanns will be LISTENING to their legal team and will be taking their advise - not the advise of Vile, Alsabella, Claws, etc... I think the McCanns are very aware that the PJ's have proven themselves to be untrustworthy - way too many leaks.
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Reconstruction

Post by tulip on Wed May 21, 2008 7:39 pm

My guess is they want to nail them on inconsistencies, yes. Even if these (inevitable) consistencies are not enough to charge them it will give them added ammunition in their leak-ridden quest to see the McCanns publicly regarded as guilty, even if nothing can be 'proved'. They must not go -- and if that's what their lawyer advises, great. Nothing to gain -- everything to lose imho
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Re: Reconstruction 29th May ? should they stay or should they go!

Post by janeGT on Wed May 21, 2008 8:57 pm

I agree with you on this.

It serves no purpose at this stage, and the PJ know it. The 'reconstruction' is not the agenda here at all and it never was. It is apportion blame and be seen to do it....nothing less. Bring down McCanns and tapas 7's reputations in case they cannot proceed to court case. Leaving a permanent smearing and huge question mark over them all, until Madeleine is found ... then what on earth can they do or say then? so hopefully this will happen......please God!!!!

They take us all for idiots, the McCanns are not, neither are their legal team. lol!
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Jane/Tulip

Post by dianeh on Thu May 22, 2008 9:16 am

I completely agree about the inconsistencies. But of course there will be inconsistencies. People do not clock watch or keep track of where everyone is for every minute when they are out to dinner.

And then lets add 12 months to the equation. How can there not be inconsistencies? But for them to mean anything, they must be glaring.

To date, there are two inconsistencies that have surfaced, according to the papers (OK, I know how unreliable they are).

1. Jane Tanner seeing the abductor but Gerry and mate not seeing her or the abductor. Yet, she saw them and they agree that she was correct in where they stood, no one disputes that the men were standing where Jane said, so she must have seen them. So how is they didnt see her? Quite easy. They are men, and men only see what they consider important. If they were looking for her, then they would have noticed. They could have had their backs to the road, sort of facing the building and just engrossed in their conversation, telling each other jokes, who knows but just not noticing what was going on around them. I wonder how the police would deal with this one. Because just because Jane saw them, and they didnt see her, doesnt mean either are lying, it just means that the men didnt see her, but she was there because she pinpointed where they were.

2. Murat. Where was he? Was he at home, or as some of the Tapas Group and other witnesses say, was he out? :?: And if he was out, where was he at the time Madeleine was abducted? If it wasnt him, who was it? And I dont think that this one will be resolved by a reconstruction. And this imo, a far more important inconsistency than anything coming from the Tapas group. But it also might mean nothing, especially if it wasnt Murat who was seen but some one who looked very similar. If it is someone similar, then the police wasted time on Murat as well.

Anyway, imo, I really doubt that there is going to be any inconsistencies that will prove anything at all. Mulitple witnesses always give inconsistent statements, over little things. And none of that would prove anything.

The whole thing is a joke. It might have been useful 11 months ago but not much chop now. Absolutely pathetic, and I re-iterate, it may even be the reason the secrecy order has been extended. That would make it vitally important to the PJ.
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Hi Diane

Post by Tinkerbell43 on Fri May 23, 2008 6:59 am

There are 2 things in particular that make me believe JT. One is, she gave the description of Madeleines Pyjamas before she even knew what Madeleine was wearing, and the other thing is the description of the man she saw. This description was also allegedly confirmed by 2 independent witnesses. Mrs Fenn's niece and the Irish man Mr. Smith.

2 other people have also come forward since to report "dodgy"men hanging around/near apartment 5A. One could only be identified as MH a nanny who was babysitting the month before Madeleine stayed there and a tourist called Amanda Mills who is reported as having seen a skulking figure near Madeleines apartment the week before. Whether these people were spotters or not I dont know, but imo, one things for sure, there was some unsavoury charactors around that resort and you have to question why MW or the Police did not let the tourists know.
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Reconstruction.

Post by Shingle on Fri May 23, 2008 8:05 pm

Hello all....new here but not at a certain sunny newspaper.

Re the reconstruction.

Why now? Why not earlier when the PJ were asked to do one and the BBC said that they would do it as a crime watcher program.

Now suddenly they want a reconstruction that will be important to the case…..What case? Why at an earlier date, when a reconstruction might have had benefit to the search for Maddie, did the police refuse to do one?

Could it be that an earlier reconstruction would have had no benefit to the bungling PJ? But this one has already been of benefit…..it has already given them leverage to extend the secrecy laws. Is it important to the PJ or in the finding of Maddie? I thought this case was all about finding Maddie or what happened to her and not about appeasing the red faces of the cops, so if it is so important, then why not televise it?

This is merely to appease the PJ and to apportion blame one way or another. Kate and Gerry will be subjected to the bitterness of the PJ and the spite that they want to heap upon them. And if Kate and Gerry or any of the friends don’t go, the PJ will be able to say they were uncooperative…..they are hiding something.

But how can you co-operate with a team of police who work behind a cloak of secrecy and don’t speak to you for months on end…..who don’t inform you of progress or lack of it. How can you co-operate with a police team, who, behind the scenes, are waging a smear campaign against you?

This is just another part of the process by the PJ to shelve the case, and leave a huge cloud over the parents and friends….as well as cover their own ineptitude.

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the reconstruction

Post by kateno.51 on Fri May 23, 2008 9:06 pm

Hello everyone. :D :D :D

I hope they don't go. I think the minute they land they will be arrested for leaving the children. I feel that when reading other threads some are goading (for want of a better word) them into returning. I would think they would use actors. It's a pity this wasn't done at the beginning instead leaving it till now. Forgot to say this is my first post. :oops:

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Re: Reconstruction 29th May ? should they stay or should they go!

Post by Rosie on Sat May 24, 2008 2:43 am

Hi to the newbies welcome to the forum. :D

I would not definitely rule out the use of a reconstruction at this point, Crimewatch often do reconstructions many years after the event and some have actually produced new leads.
Maybe I am hoping against hope that someone in PDL who I believe actually knows something, will have their conscience pricked enough for them to actually report what they 'know'.

However, having said that, I too have to ask why all of a sudden is it of importance to this investigation? It certainly wasn't almost 13 months ago when Gerry requested a reconstruction and the BBC Crimewatch team were willing to go over and film it, using their vast experience in this sort of thing! It was flatly refused by the person leading the investigation at the time, now who was that? Ummm let me see, err hang on it will come to me in a minute, who was it now? Oh yes I know I have it, it was none other than Tubby Lardy Boy Gonc *Goncalo Amaral*.
Again yet another road leading back to good old Gonc, doesn't the Portuguese Policia Judiciaria have anyone else working for them? This man seems to pop up in every case, especially where there is controversy!!!!!

If this was being done by the Crimewatch team and it was going to be televised in the hope of attracting new witnesses, I could see the logic of it, but as it isn't, what is the point? I cannot see one single logical point for this.

  • Why is it necessary to have Kate and Gerry play themselves? Not only is this NOT necessasary, it is completely insensitive and it would cause them even more pain.

Looks to me as if the PJ are just doing this, in an attempt to blacken them further.
Take a note of when the PJ mention this, it is always when they want to divert attention away from the McCann's.
The first time it was muted when they were campaigning for a European Amber Alert style system.
The second time was when Sky News reported the high possibility of a connection between the Joana Cipriano case and Madeleine's case.
The behaviour of the PJ has been utterly incorrigible, totally unprofessional and amateurish too!
It the PJ are supposed to be the third best on the world, God help the rest of the world is all I can say!
If it is not a vital part of the investigation, why do it?
If it is a vital part, why the hell wasn't it done immediately?


All I see is a police force riddled with people that cannot keep their fat mouths quiet, they talk to the press, may or may not be for money, who knows? The leaks never turn out to be true, just a pack of likes, seems to me that they are being designed to cause the McCann's maximum damage, even though they know they are not guilty and you have to ask why?

  • Paedophile ring, formed after Casa Pia became a no go?
    Child trafficking?
    Corruption in Portuguese government?
    Corruption in the Portuguese Police?
    Corruption in the Portuguese press?
    Corruption in the Portuguese legal system?
    Paedophilia in celebrity circles?


Who actually knows? Someone does.

Seems I am not the olnly one that thinks like this, thanks to Christabel for providing this link.

Take a good look at this site which seems to talk about 'Potuguese corruption' and do not forget the author is writing with irony!

Portuguese Corruption?

I have long since had a feeling that something very sinister is happening in Portugal and what better place to operate it, in a place that is so quiet, everyone would say, Never, not in PDL, it is just a quiet little sleepy fishing village.

Exactly! affraid

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'Apparently' Kate and Gerry Are to Take Part?

Post by Rosie on Sat May 24, 2008 3:03 am

Who knows if to believe this, it originated from 24 Horas, so buyer definitely beware!

Kate & Gerry To Take Part In Reconstruction? Whoops PJ, You have dropped The Ball Again!


Personally, I will believe this when I see it, but if Kate and Gerry are to take part in this, then I feel they would have turned the tables on the PJ BIG TIME and are about to do something the PJ did not think they would and neither do they want them to! (New political police chief about to get his knuckles wrapped?)

This will bring the whole circus back to PDL right at a time when they are reporting a sharp decline in holiday bookings anyway? If this is true I bet there is some blue air in the Portuguese tourist board offices and the Portuguese government! pmsl

Diane maybe Kate and Gerry think the same as you about the secrecy thing and they are taking that card away from the PJ and the judiciary and forcing them to allow them to see their files?

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Portugal.

Post by Shingle on Sat May 24, 2008 8:42 pm

Rosiepops,

I followed your links to an insight into Portugal....it is both alarming and disturbing that this should be happening in Europe, right under the noses of the government.

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Hi Shingle

Post by Rosie on Sun May 25, 2008 6:01 am

They are alarming aren't they? (It was Christabel that found these links) At least it shows that not all people are being fooled by the Portuguese government or the PJ.

I am convinced that something is being kept from the McCann's and the general public. I find it strange that many roads all seem to lead to Goncalo Amaral!
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Re: Reconstruction 29th May ? should they stay or should they go!

Post by kateno.51 on Sun May 25, 2008 7:12 am

Rosiepops wrote:They are alarming aren't they? (It was Christabel that found these links) At least it shows that not all people are being fooled by the Portuguese government or the PJ.

I am convinced that something is being kept from the McCann's and the general public. I find it strange that many roads all seem to lead to Goncalo Amaral!

Do you think he is taking orders from others or is he calling the shots. I don't think he's calling the shots. Not for a minute. As far as I'm concerned he is doing what he's told. Who is telling him what to do? :(

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Rosie

Post by dianeh on Sun May 25, 2008 8:57 am

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the need for a reconstruction (ie continuing the investigation) is one of the reasons put forward for the continued secrecy. Nothing else explains the change of heart by the PJ, from where a reconstruction was unnecessary, to where it is so essential that they McCanns must attend.

I dont discount the PJ's attempt to continue to discredit the McCanns either but by itself, that means nothing, it surely has no bearing on the continuing secrecy order. But it does provide doubt in the eyes of many, and therefore divert attention away from the continuing secrecy order. In other words, why would the general public in Portugal care that the secrecy order is continued when the McCanns are obviously so unwilling to co-operate. All part of an overral strategy I think.

If the McCanns are going to Portugal, then it really will show the PJ up for what they are. I however, still think the whole thing a great waster of time, and money. And one would hope that the Portuguese judicial system is not stupid enough to charge the McCanns with anything while they are there. Remembering that any charge would need to be a slam dunk with a resulting heavy sentence, or else the Portuguese judicial system will lay itself open to all sorts of scrutiny that they wont want, and are not used to, considering that it will be international scrutiny. IMO, they just wont risk it. They are already suffering in the tourism industry, charges against the McCanns would cripple it. All my own opinion of course.
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KateNo & Diane

Post by Rosie on Sun May 25, 2008 10:43 pm

Kateno,

I think you are right he is not calling the shots, (he obviously isn't clever enough to call the shots). Looks like someone else is calling "A-moral's" shots and he has to go along, he has no choice! He looks like a frightened man to me and is also acting like one, all this aggression about what he is going to do and the book he is going to write, is small time bluster designed to divert attention away from the real issues. But all the bluster in the world will not stop the truth coming out in this case. I firmly believe that the truth will out here and it when it does, it is going to be astonishing and will take some well known figures down and will rock Portugal, if they thought Casa Pia was shaming, they have no idea of the tornado that is about to hit them concerning a little British girl called Madeleine McCann, it will reveal much and ultimately will reveal what happened to other children. I believe there could be much panicking going on behind the scenes, the faceless people that have been authors and the directors of this organisation, now know they are withing a fraction of being revealed. In no way did they ever even envisage that this particular abduction was going to cause such a stir, they were prepared for an initial fuss, but they thought it would soon die down, what they did not bargain for was the tenacity of this child's parents and what they definitely underestimated was the mentality of the British. For this organisation, discovery of the truth is burning them and they have nowhere to run and hide - organised crime, has suddenly become very disorganised.

Diane,

I think you may be correct about the reconstruction being a reason to keep the secrecy order in place, but I think it is much more convoluted that just one particular reason. It seems to me that the powers that be want the lid kept on this and they see this secrecy order as the only way of doing this. I no longer think this is just the PJ's bidding, it goes much deeper than that, I actually think their strings are being worked by their political puppet masters, in short the PJ are now being used as "fall guys" and let's face it, it is working. Who are people becoming very angry with? Not the politicians or the judges behind the scenes, but with the PJ, this is not an accident, this has happened by design. The sudden "departure" of Alipio Ribeiro from his job as political police chief and the sudden "planting" of José Maria Almeida Rodrigues, (a person who was once a member of the PJ) into the 'political' role of national PJ director, is so transparent, so evident, that you can plainly see the political posturing and maneuvering behind the scenes. This case has been peppered with resignations and sackings all the way through. Portugal needs to stop insulting our intelligence, by saying that politics has not had a hand in the disgraceful way this investigation has been allowed to lumber on, when it is obvious to anyone that can think objectively, that politics has been driving this investigation (or lack of one) from day one!

No wonder the Portuguese politicians choose to have secrecy laws about their police operations.

This 'convenient' secrecy order, recently amended apparently to come in line with Europe, but amazingly Portugal has been allowed by the European parliament to add caveats, ludicrously blatant *get out* clauses, that protect corruption and political interference and means that politicians can interfere behind the scenes in the judicial system and keep people like the McCann's in judicial limbo for any amount of time! So the question we must not fail to ask ourselves is, "how do we know that it is the PJ that are keeping this secrecy order in place?" This is no longer just the tragic case of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, or about the disastrous hit that Portugal's tourist industry has taken as direct result of the way parents feel about the safety of their children in Portugal's holiday resorts or its effects on the Portuguese economy, in my opinion it is the case of someone or some people behind the scenes pulling the PJ's strings and trying desperately to fend off revelations that they know fully well will rock Portugal and almost certainly see its exit from the European Union, which politically and economically will be dire in its effect on Portugal! In my opinion it really is this cataclysmic for Portugal, if this happens, Portugal's "Socialist" government can say goodbye to the trappings of political power for many years to come! (I use the term "Socialist" very loosely indeed, some of the most Socialist governments are so "Socialist" they would give an extreme right wing government a run for their money!)

As I have said this is no longer simply the case of a missing British child, who almost certainly was in fact abducted from her bed, in her parents holiday rented holiday apartment, it transcended this long ago. Portugal has been shown seriously wanting and has a distinct lack of a coordinated quick acting national system to deal with such atrocities and I would say is ill prepared to deal with other crimes of magnitude. This is why the PJ decided to leak on the day the McCann's went to the EU with their proposals for an 'Amber alert' style system for Europe, they were forced to leak this information about Madeleine crying, why else do you think that not one single person has been held to book over such a blatant leak? Such a serious leak heralds an internal failure of trust within a country's supposed "elite" police force and not one person gets investigated for it? No internal inquiry into the failings and the leakages out of the PJ? The investigation of Madeleine McCann has been an institutionalised failure. And if we believe, as the Portuguese want us to believe, that Portugal is no monolithic fascist state or third world country, but is a fellow-European country and acts as typically so, what kind of reputation has Europe as a whole got in the "rest of the world?" The rest of the world must be looking upon Europe and shaking their heads in disbelief about what has unfolded here. So I ask what chance did Madeleine stand?

However, I believe something of enormous proportions is about to hit Portugal and they will be unable to stop it. It cannot come soon enough for this innocent child Madeleine McCann and her parents and greater family. Some are about to learn that they cannot just pick children off at their whim and use them for whatever reasons and just get away with it!

In my opinion what has emerged over the past months is organised crime and its deeply entrenched political connections Vs People Power and so far People Power has won, hands down and it is winning simply because we refuse to just shut up and go away and stop mentioning this child. People are refusing to let the disappearance of an innocent child just become an acceptable part of modern day society, it is not and we will *NOT* accept this and organised crime no matter how big or how rich, or how powerful it thinks it is, is actually no match for the power of ordinary decent people.

The truth will emerge, I have every faith that it will, the disappearance of little Madeleine McCann will go down in history as the last straw that broke the camels back, and many people will come to rue the day, they thought they could just go and abduct a child, any child, they they felt like abducting! If the people behind this abduction are starting to feel uncomfortable, then they have every reason to feel this way! What in fact they sensing is real and is the beginning of their particular demise, they are sensing that they are now going to be asked to pay for their unspeakable heinous evil against our innocent children. All those that know something in Praia Da Luge, (and there are those that "know", make no mistake about that) they need to start talking now before it is too late, this is their last chance to make what they "know", known, to those that are seeking this information, if they ignore this then they ignore this last chance at their peril and they "know" who they are! Scared men and women who thought they were safely playing with the big boys are now almost paralysed with fear. If they do ignore this then what they "know" will turn out to be their "nemesis" and history is littered with people that fell by the wayside because they chose to ignore those little stirrings of discomfort that were growing deep inside their psyches!
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NOW THIS IS SUDDENLY TOPICAL 'AGAIN'!

Post by Rosie on Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:44 am

Good to re read this thread and refresh the memory of why the reconstruction was never held in the first place. Not that we need reminding.

1)....The PJ turned DOWN the offer of BBC Crimewatch team offer to carry out a construction

2)....If The reconstruction ever did take place it was ONLY for the files, what the hell good was that?POINTLESS!

3)....This reconstruction was NEVER a serious contender for the PJ and they only brought it out to take the the attention away from the McCanns, on the day they were at the EU promoting the Amber Alert System.

Nice try PJ, now we will show you how it should be done! You are a disgrace PJ!

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"RICARDO PAIVA SHOULD RESIGN, HIS POSITION IS UNTENABLE - IF HE DOES NOT RESIGN, THEN SACK HIM!
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Rosie
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Re: Reconstruction 29th May ? should they stay or should they go!

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