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Madeleine: Portuguese police to re-examine burglaries at resort

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Madeleine: Portuguese police to re-examine burglaries at resort

Post by Guest on Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:17 am

Madeleine: Portuguese police to re-examine burglaries at resort
By FIONA BARTON
Last updated at 11:48 19 August 2007



The under-fire Portuguese police are preparing to take a fresh look at reports of two earlier break-ins in the apartment block where Madeleine McCann and her family stayed.

Both burglaries - one in the apartment directly above the McCann's flat - are understood to have happened two weeks before the family of five arrived at the Mark Warner Ocean Club in Praia da Luz.

One was believed to have been committed by someone with a key to the burgled apartment.

A room at the Mark Warner Ocean Club. At least one of the burglaries may have been committed by someone who had a key to the rooms

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It is also understood that the description given by two witnesses of a man spotted on the night of one of the burglaries is similar to the description given by a friend of the McCanns who said she saw a man carrying a child in his arms the night Madeleine went missing.

The police are now set to re-interview a number of witnesses from the Ocean Club, a source close to the Policia Judiciaria said, in order to "clarify details that may be relevant to the new line of inquiry, in the light of facts we have found".

Pamela Fenn says she 'scared off' an intruder who had broken into her apartment

Among them will be ex-pat Pamela Fenn, a widow in her 70s. She claims she "scared off" an intruder who had broken into her apartment in the days before the McCanns arrived to stay in the holiday flat directly below her.

Mrs Fenn has told friends she heard a noise as she watched television and found a man escaping through her bedroom window. Her niece, who was staying with her, also saw the man.

The widow reported the incident to police but claims no one contacted her after Madeleine vanished - until two weeks ago, when British detectives called on her.

Mrs Fenn's niece is travelling to Portugal from the UK next week to be interviewed by the Policia Judiciaria.

Mrs Fenn said: "I will speak to the police on Monday."

The alleged break-in is said to have happened within days of a second burglary in the same block.

A Scottish holidaymaker said that on the first night of her stay, she and a friend returned to the flat to find their belongings and £500 worth of foreign money had been taken.

But there was no sign of forced entry at the second floor apartment and police called to the scene told the middle-aged book-keeper that they believed someone with a key was the most likely suspect, sparking concerns about security at the complex.

Detectives are understood to be waiting for the results of DNA tests on blood samples before re-interviewing Kate and Gerry McCann and their party of friends.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-476064/Madeleine-Portuguese-police-examine-burglaries-resort.html


i came across this i thought id add it

sian

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One Wonders

Post by Rosie on Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:53 pm

(I have moved this topic here.)

Why knowing this that the PJ did not take what the nanny Margaret Hall said seriously. There is obviously a security problem at this resort, burglaries etc.

I remember reading this and have mentioned it repeated over the last year, this has to be very important but as usual the PJ did absolutely nothing and probably wrote this off as "out of date" too.

It is also understood that the description given by two witnesses of a man spotted on the night of one of the burglaries is similar to the description given by a friend of the McCanns who said she saw a man carrying a child in his arms the night Madeleine went missing.

So one man seen acting suspiciously one year before, scares a nanny so much that she fled back to the safety of "APARTMENT 5a" and reports it to the MW manager the next morning. The incident is reported to the police when Madeleine disappeared and the PJ disregard it as "OUT OF DATE!" Despite the witness reporting that the man she saw resembled the description of man that Jane Tanner said she saw carrying a child away the night Madeleine vanished? WHAT? What was the matter with Goncalo Amaral? Did this sighting of this possible suspect and the fact that it fitted the description given by Jane Tanner, not fit in with what Amaral wanted to believe? So he just disregarded it as well as everything else that did not fit into to his closed mind?

Then two burglaries are reported immediately BEFORE the McCann's arrived for their holidays, one of the burglaries was directly above apartment 5a and the other burglary, a key was used to gain access to the burgled apartment. Incidentally the description of the man that Mrs Fenn saw also resembled the description of the man that the nanny saw, the other two witnesses and the man JT said she saw, apparently all reported the same hair style *Independently of each other*!

Five significant points here:

  1. A copy key was used in one burglary
  2. Another burglary was directly above where Madeleine disappeared from
  3. A year before there was another incident concerning apartment 5a
  4. It is discovered that the person the nanny saw strongly resembles the man Jane Tanner saw walking away with Madeleine.
  5. ALL independent descriptions of this man all seem to tally and possibly point to this being the same man, that all these witnesses saw.


  • How far were these incidents investigated?
  • Who was the investigating officer?
  • What was discovered as a result of these investigations?
  • Why wasn't a proper e-fit taken from this nanny at the time she reported it?
  • Have the PJ investigated that a copy key was used to gain access to a burgled apartment?
  • With so many witnesses reporting they saw a man and their descriptions all seem to tally with each other, what did the PJ do about this?
  • It had to be significant, so what did they do about it, besides burying the e-fits of possible suspects and not showing them to anyone


Again this week it emerged from the files that the Portuguese police, 'the policia judiciaria' have ignored and totally disregarded reports of suspicious activity and burglaries could have turned out to be vital leads to discovering who abducted Madeleine and why.

It beggars belief that the point of entry and exit has always been a mystery in the disappearance of Madeleine and that the key to apartment 5a is a "COPY". There is a previously reported burglary happened in a nearby apartment just before the McCann's arrived for their holiday where a key was used to gain entry and knowing all of this the PJ disregarded all this as either not significant or out of date? And the PJ embarrass themselves further by wondering why level headed logical minded people raise an eyebrow at this and shake their heads in total disbelief at the bungling incompetence?

It is such basic police work that you have to ask the question why? Why did these mistakes happen? But even more when this is placed along side all the other astonishing blunders by the Portuguese police, you start asking yourself why and how at every twist and at every turn the police made astonishing bungles? Is this simply because the the PJ are totally inept at their job? Or is there something else altogether more sinister or more questionable going on here beneath surface?

More importantly where is this man all these witnesses have seen now? He must be known to someone, where is he and what are the PJ doing to hunt him down in order to question him?
Someone, somewhere has to know who this man is, is he a local man to PDL? He would for certain have a record, where is he? Is he a transient? Someone knows him, has he grown a beard? Grown his hair? Shaved his head? What? Where is he? Is he dead or alive? Who is protecting him and why? He definitely exists, he has been seen by around 4 different witnesses.

When the DNA was harvested from apartment 5a, is any laying unidentified? Has Portugal got some kind of DNA data base? If so does any of the DNA discovered in apartment 5a match any entered on this data base? There has for certain DNA gained from dried blood spots that is unidentified and NOT belonging to the McCann family, has this lead been hunted down properly? Has all those who stayed in apartment 5a been traced and their DNA taken and checked aginst this DNA found? If the PJ pulled their finger out and tried to hunt this suspect down from his e-fit picture, they can do a DNA profile and see if it matches any found in the apartment.

So come on PJ do your job for once and hunt this person down and question him, something you should have done in the first days of Madeleine's disappearance. Why didn't you?


Former police chief Goncalo Amaral, has a lot to answer for and it is about time those that are responsible for asking questions of people like Amaral, actually started to organise it.

Goncalo Amaral needs to be brought in for questioning and people in authority need to start demanding answers to the great many questions that need to be asked of him. Something is not right here, something appears greatly amiss.

What is the PJ so afraid of? What is the Portuguese government so scared of? The Portuguese government needs to show the world that they are a democratic EU country and that they are not a police state, because from where I am standing, Portugal is looking very much like it has a loose cannon police force that do exactly what they want, when they want and no one is brave enough, or strong enough to question them.

If Portugal wants to behave like this , then this is up to them, but while it is a police state and behaves in this fashion it has no place and certainly no business being a member of the EU. Other country's have been turned down membership to the EU for a lot less than the behaviour witnessed in Portugal.


Last edited by Rosiepops on Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:30 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Madeleine: Portuguese police to re-examine burglaries at resort

Post by clairesy on Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:14 pm

To me this sounds like a member of staff....................only a member of staff would have regular access to all these apartments when ever they chose. And only a member of staff at the OC would have knowledge that the mccanns didn't use the listening service etc. No DNA found from the abductor???Im not so sure.I think they have the abductors DNA already...they just don't realise it.
Either that or as i Said before pj chose to ignore the abduction....

who's who???IMO its time to analyse all staff and their relations(if any) with other sources...such as pj etc etc.Someone somewhere knows more than they are letting on....and they are safe in the knowledge that they have protection from the bigger guys.
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Hi Clairesy

Post by Rosie on Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:50 pm

clairesy wrote:To me this sounds like a member of staff....................only a member of staff would have regular access to all these apartments when ever they chose. And only a member of staff at the OC would have knowledge that the mccanns didn't use the listening service etc. No DNA found from the abductor???Im not so sure.I think they have the abductors DNA already...they just don't realise it.
Either that or as i Said before pj chose to ignore the abduction....

who's who???IMO its time to analyse all staff and their relations(if any) with other sources...such as pj etc etc.Someone somewhere knows more than they are letting on....and they are safe in the knowledge that they have protection from the bigger guys.

The PJ should have already carried out such investigations as a matter of great urgency, the fact that they did not do this is wide open to interpretation!

It has been reported that even to this very date the DNA from staff and people staying and or working at the MW Ocean Club at around this time has still NOT been gathered! Apparently there are also apartments that should have been searched at the time, to this day still have NOT been searched!

Why? Why were so many leads that could very well have turned out to be crucial just either ignored, cast aside or classed as "Out Of Date?"

The PJ almost certainly has the DNA of what has been reported to be of an Eastern European Male. The pertinent thing here is that these witnesses are describing men that could have come from this quarter and could very well tally with the descriptions given by all these witnesses, of a person they have seen acting suspiciously around apartment 5a and one actually caught inside. One could be absolutely vital as it appears to match the description of man seen walking away with a child in his arms that night. I remember reading this was the description given by Mrs Fenn of the man she caught in her apartment the week BEFORE Madeleine arrived. To say nothing of the description that Mrs Fenn's niece also saw of a man acting suspiciously in the car park *OUTSIDE APARTMENT 5a* the week before the McCann's arrived to begin their holiday! Mrs Fenn's niece's description, also appears to fit in with the description of the two different witnesses given of the man in the e-fit seen *ALSO* acting suspiciously in the *SAME* place.

Why didn't the PJ hunt this person down and check his DNA with that found in apartment 5a, which is still I believe laying unidentified?

There is absolutely no excuses for this appalling negligence, a child had disappeared, independent witnesses all seem to be describing a similar man, placing him at or around the scene and the police had in their possession two e-fits by two *SEPARATE* Individual witnesses, bearing an extremely strong resemblance to each other and again another vital lead, were seen on different days by different people, standing next to a white van acting suspiciously *OUTSIDE APARTMENT 5a* where Madeleine disappeared from and Goncalo Amaral done *NOTHING?* Why FFS? Why did he not immediately release the e-fits to try and apprehend this man? Why did we have to find out about them 15 months later? It is bloody insanely appallingly negligent! If this is what it is and it is nothing else more appalling.

Could it be because of fundamental errors in the investigative technique on behalf of Goncalo Amaral that this man was never searched for or apprehended?

  • He had ignored all these descriptions dismissing them as insignificant and "Out Of Date?"
  • He *FAILED* to isolate the the crime scene?
  • He did not order the correct DNA sweep of apartment 5a until day 100 AFTER Madeleine disappeared?
  • So he did not know about this DNA, did not know when it could have been left there.
  • He had no idea if it was left either at the time of the abduction of afterwards.
  • Because he, 'Amaral' astonishingly *ALLOWED* the apartment to be rented out to a further 4 holidaying families in the weeks after Madeleine disappeared?
  • He did this because he simply made his mind up that the parents were guilty and so shut his mind down to every other possibility, thus allowing the abductors even more time to get clean away!


I have one question I would like to ask the Portuguese government; "Who is going to order that Goncalo Amaral be brought in for questioning over his conduct both during the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and also AFTER it?"

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Re: Madeleine: Portuguese police to re-examine burglaries at resort

Post by Mobira on Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:01 am

clairesy wrote:To me this sounds like a member of staff....................only a member of staff would have regular access to all these apartments when ever they chose. And only a member of staff at the OC would have knowledge that the mccanns didn't use the listening service etc. No DNA found from the abductor???Im not so sure.I think they have the abductors DNA already...they just don't realise it.
Either that or as i Said before pj chose to ignore the abduction....

who's who???IMO its time to analyse all staff and their relations(if any) with other sources...such as pj etc etc.Someone somewhere knows more than they are letting on....and they are safe in the knowledge that they have protection from the bigger guys.

Could be a member of staff but it could also be quite a few people. I have not been able to find a good picture of the front door to the apartment, there seem to be people standing in front of it on all photos Ė but from the few I have seen it doesnít look like a security door at all but just like a bog standard wooden door, the same type of doors that a lot of rental apartments have here in Spain, and they normally come with bog standard locks with keys that you can copy anywhere without restrictions, without showing any form of ID and you donít even need the original key. If that is the case, ANYONE who has ever held a key to the apartment could have made a copy (i.e. staff, former tenants, previous OC guests, real estate people etc)
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Re: Madeleine: Portuguese police to re-examine burglaries at resort

Post by Rosie on Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:02 am

Hi Mobira,

I think this it has been reported that the key is in fact a security key and IS a copy. In fact it was the News of the World and I have put a picture of this key on here and a locksmith has said that this key is a copy. If it is a security key then it would only be able to be cut in certain places and it should not have been too hard for the PJ to check if a copy has been cut recently from it.

There are a few ways this copy key could have been cut, the staff must be in possession of one to clean the apartment, maintenance would be able to get one to carry out work and not least the owner of the apartment should be able to say if this key is a copy where the original is. It may be simply that she has the original and the other key is a copy.

But there is an ample time and people that a key could have been cut, not least by someone staying at the apartment on holiday, this is why I ask have all the previous holiday occupants of this apartment been checked out?

You would think that as there is a distinct possibility that the abductors entered through this door with a key then the PJ would have done their basic police work and got all of this checked out?

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Rosie

Post by dianeh on Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:25 am

You would think that as there is a distinct possibility that the abductors entered through this door with a key then the PJ would have done their basic police work and got all of this checked out?

Do you really need an answer to this question? Of course they didnt check it out, there was no abductor, therefore no key needed.
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Re: Madeleine: Portuguese police to re-examine burglaries at resort

Post by maria on Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:01 pm

Rosie

I wasn't going to intervene in this thread, but as I had an extensive intervention/explanation on Sky, decided just to pop in.

If the key is a standard safety key (two sides), you are right a copy is easily made, no master key available so there must be several 'legal' keys around, one for each person dully accessing the apartment: the tennant, the maid/maintenance, the owner (in case of 5A, don't know about the others), MW back up. As there are 3 original keys provided with each lock, we may have one legal copy just from start. In Portugal, no one asks you if you are the rightful owner when you request a copy. And it is not that difficult, almost all, if not all, of these kiosks you find in underground train stations will gladly make one for you. Expensive, but working.

However, I heard that the key was a safety 'crucifix' key. These have four sides. Again, no master key and three keys provided with lock, one key per person needed. Don't know of corner shops being able to make copies, legal locksmiths do not make copies here. They are very difficult to copy, also, because key and lock fit very tightly, even dust may interfere. If, from start, there was a need for a fourth key, I believe MW could have struck a deal with the manufacturer/dealer to get an additional original key as many locks were being installed. Another aspect is that crucifix keys are relatively recent, if they are fitted at MW they probably were replacing the standard safety keys.

If there have been burglaries at the complex before without the doors showing signs of having been forced, I would guess that one of the keys at MW for those (and eventually other) apartments have been 'borrowed' for a while: to make a copy if normal safety key, or to be used straigh away, in any case (standard or crucifix), being returned shortly after. This might require a MW employee cumplicity or not, could be that just the MW (including back-up) keys are not properly and safely stored. This should have been investigated long ago, since the first burglary, by MW and GNR. At that point, it was not a PJ job to investigate.

Of course, in this case were the stolen was not an object but a subject, the investigation should have been lead by PJ and go as back and far as needed.
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Hi Maria

Post by Rosie on Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:24 am

Here is a picture of the actual key and it is a security key, it looks to be a four sided key. This picture was taken when the News of the World rented the actual apartment 5a from the owner.

The same here in this country, there is no way you can get a legal copy of this key cut, but this is not to say that people do not get copies, they do. Locksmiths know they should not cut certain keys but they still do it.

The News of the World had a locksmith study this key and they said it was definitely a copy. My point is that I hope the PJ have done their work and spoken to the owner about this and ascertained if this was a legal copy, if she had this key copied. Remember that there would be at least TWO official keys to this lock, people can get legal copies made, so it would have been up to the PJ to check this out right back to the locksmith who made the copies to be certain. The locksmiths would 'have' to keep records of this transaction.

There were other burglaries at the complex and it was thought that they got in with a key, this is very significant, especially as the point of entry to apartment 5a is in question. This is all I am pointing out.


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