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The great Gonzo's 'evidence!'

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The great Gonzo's 'evidence!'

Post by vee8 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:56 am

So, Gonzo the Great says all the evidence he has points to Madeleine dying in the appartment. Right, first of all, over the past weeks, much has been said in the papers about what the McCann's COULD be charged with, all the way from abandonment to murder. But two of the possibilities were failing to notify the authorities of a death, and concealment of a corpse. So, if Madeleine DID die in the apartment, one of three things must have happened. One, the parents deliberatly killed her, two, they accidentally killed her, or three, Madeleine suffered a fatal accident of some sort. All of those possibilities meant that Kate and Gerry would have had a body in the flat somewhere. But when the police turned up, there was NO body. Now, unless a dead Madeleine (Sorry if this is getting distastefull, but I need to make my point,) got up and walked out of the flat, that means that Kate and Gerry MUST have disposed of the corpse. Therefore breaking a law. That would be all the proof needed, if Gonzo really had evidence of a death in the flat. BUT the judges words were, 'there is a total lack of any evidence that the suspects committed any crime' So, Gonzo is talking out of his fat, sweaty backside! I would say that alone is libel, wouldn't you?
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Hi Vee8

Post by Rosie on Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:40 am

I would like to ask lardy boy, if he had all this evidence why didn't he arrest them and charge them? What was stopping him? Oh I know he has NO evidence, because there was NO evidence and there is NO evidence beacuse thay are innocent.

I really hope that Kate and Gerry do sue him or at least manage to get an injunction against him, preventing him publishing his pack of lies and fairy stories.

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Evidence

Post by maria on Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:45 am

Re Madeleine's death in the apartment

Human memory is really short. Thanks to experts and scientists for the computer memory.

Gonc was an inspector/detective from the Portimão PJ office and would therefore be responsible for any case in the area. However, because there was a missing person, a specialised homicide brigade has been called in from Lisbon and has been around for roughly a week. They left without finding any evidence of homicide. This information was provided during a program aired on RTP1, 'Prós e contras' in September last year, by the president of the 'union association of the forensic investigators' (ASFIC), Mr. Carlos Anjos.

Now, either Gonc is calling his colleagues liars and/or incompetents or he is the incompetent liar. As the homicide brigade, logics and evidence later found by other intervening people (namely the british team and dogs, FSS results) coincide, the only conclusion is that HE IS the one and only.

I don't know if the conclusions of this one week work from the homicide brigade is part of the files, I would expect so. McCanns' lawyers will probably have access to these conclusions and will know what to do about them.


Last edited by maria on Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:50 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typing error)
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Re: The great Gonzo's 'evidence!'

Post by Tinkerbell43 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:11 am

Thank you Maria, that is very interesting.

I also remember very early on, Guilhermino Encarnacao also made a press statement advising that there was evidence of a kidnapping. I have often wondered where that evidence went. Maybe this information will be in the files, but judging by the latest leak of the 56 page document, I am very concerned as to who has access to these files and how secure is the information contained therein.
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Thank you Maria

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:14 am

You have restored my faith in the Portuguese people. Having only had dealings with the likes of Claudia, Alsabella and Mandarin....I was beginning to wonder if all Portuguese people were born with a vipers tongue and the mentalitly of two thick planks.
Like you...I believe Gonc is digging his own grave. The harder he digs...the deeper he goes.
In your opinion, Maria...would you say the majority of normal Portuguese people share your beliefs over this tragic and heart breaking case?

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Re: The great Gonzo's 'evidence!'

Post by Rosie on Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:00 am

Tinks this is exactly what I think and it really is a concern that all these leaks and smears are still continuing even though this case is now officially closed.

Maria, how often is it that a full and open public inquiry is carried out in Portugal and do the Portuguese public in general ever pressurise their government into holding such an inquiry?

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My feelings

Post by maria on Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:51 pm

Rosie, Mum

I believe most of the portuguese people would support the McCanns, better, do realise that PJ, and Gonc's team in particular, blew it. However, and because of pure cheap politics, the 'patriots' are very vocal and provocative, it may give the wrong impression. As an example only yesterday a political party secretary general, very shyly, said that 'in spite of all the (huge) work, justice hasn't been served, we don't know of Madeleine'. Not a bad start, considering.

About 'full and open public inquiries' - never. We have the secrecy laws to start with... Pressurising the government is something the common person and civil rigths organisations are starting to do, but in cases like this, that are not government's direct responsibility but the bodies (PJ in the case) inquiries are generally held internally by specially appointed task forces. And have to be public cases and somehow high profile, like a cop having accidently (or not) killed a detainee at a police station or something like that. Yes, we the common citizen feel somewhat let down on that. But don't take me wrong, it is improving, there is much more public awareness and authorities do listen more (government, courts and public prosecutors). Leonor's torture case is a proof of what I am saying as well as a case of adoption that has been in court for four years but today seems that the interest of the child will finally prevail in court due to constant and widespread public pressure. In these and other cases the inquiries were started by the public prosecutor, not some good will internal boss.
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Hi maria

Post by Rosie on Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:54 pm

maria wrote:Rosie, Mum

I believe most of the portuguese people would support the McCanns, better, do realise that PJ, and Gonc's team in particular, blew it. However, and because of pure cheap politics, the 'patriots' are very vocal and provocative, it may give the wrong impression. As an example only yesterday a political party secretary general, very shyly, said that 'in spite of all the (huge) work, justice hasn't been served, we don't know of Madeleine'. Not a bad start, considering.

About 'full and open public inquiries' - never. We have the secrecy laws to start with... Pressurising the government is something the common person and civil rigths organisations are starting to do, but in cases like this, that are not government's direct responsibility but the bodies (PJ in the case) inquiries are generally held internally by specially appointed task forces. And have to be public cases and somehow high profile, like a cop having accidently (or not) killed a detainee at a police station or something like that. Yes, we the common citizen feel somewhat let down on that. But don't take me wrong, it is improving, there is much more public awareness and authorities do listen more (government, courts and public prosecutors). Leonor's torture case is a proof of what I am saying as well as a case of adoption that has been in court for four years but today seems that the interest of the child will finally prevail in court due to constant and widespread public pressure. In these and other cases the inquiries were started by the public prosecutor, not some good will internal boss.

I find your words somewhat a comfort, I was beginning to think that the Portuguese people were just rolling over and taking everything and anything that is fed them.
I know I should not, but I sometimes forget and take for granted how far down this particular road that we are in the UK and of course it was not always like this, true democracy (if there is ever a true democracy) is a long fought battle and one I do not think is ever truly won, not by any country.

I do not think that Portugal is alone in having a very vociferous *minority* and any country's Right Wingers seem to have been blessed with raucous voices! Perhaps it is because their views are so extreme that they tend to make the news over the more rational and logically thinking person and because their views are so distasteful normal people do not listen to them, so they keep shouting loudly until someone does. The thing is in a true democracy we have to learn to be tolerant and allow these people their views, no matter how distasteful they happen to be to us. Anyway I am a great believer in "good will always win over bad and evil".

I may be wrong but I think your ex national police chief, Alipio Ribeiro seems to me to be a man of integrity, I think for a long while he knew that Kate, Gerry and Robert Murat should not be arguidos and that there was no evidence for this to be the case. What he has said yesterday about he thinks this case should not be shelved, I think would be warmly welcomed by Kate and Gerry, because I think they are absolutely gutted that this case is now closed, this is not what they wanted at all. They wanted to know that the PJ are going to carry on looking for Madeleine, right there in Portugal and in Praia da Luz. I have heard scant reference that says the PJ are still continuing this investigation and I really hope this is so, however, I am a realist and something tells me this is just empty words, after all the PJ actually stopped looking for Madeleine in June of 2007, why would they suddenly start again now? I hope they feel able to co-operate fully with the team of private investigators that Kate and Gerry have hired, also I believe there is a new team of investigators, recently hired by the McCann's and I am praying that they get something from these case files.

I had hoped that Portugal would hold a full and open inquiry into this, it could do much for their willingness to come into line with most of the rest of the EU, in cases like this, every country should be seen to be doing the right thing and the right thing to do in this case is to hold this inquiry. If the Portuguese government do not hold this inquiry then all the very evident blunders made by the PJ will just go on unchanged and if God forbid this happened again, they will be no better equipped to handle it any more efficiently then they did with Madeleine's case and that is very bad news.

I actually thought this about Portugal and the judge's decision to take to trial Goncalo Amaral and Paulo Cristoavo and thought well at least here is one judge that is doing the right thing and being seen to be doing the right thing, I just hope when the above two and the two others get to trial that the jury is not from your patriot right wing side in Portugal because if they are, then this is going to be a complete waste of time and the case will only be a show case. However, if the right evidence is brought out in court it is hard to see this going anywhere else other than a conviction of the FOUR ARGUIDOS and a retrial ordered for Leonor Cipriano and her brother. If this does happen, I think this would certainly mean that Leonor and her brother won their case, as they were convicted on he flimsiest of evidence and the one piece of evidence that could have proved this *either way* which is the blood that was said to have been Joana's which was found in the freezer, was never DNA tested has mysteriously been thrown away! So from the reading I have done I cannot see that there is anything in this case that could give a safe conviction of Leonor or her brother and if the Portuguese judicial system is working and being worked by open and uncorrupted judges etc, it is hard to see anything other than the release of Leonor and her brother. Of course I take on board that I have not seen the majority of the evidence against this brother and sister, but what I have seen is pretty significant and damning and points to a miscarriage of justice.

I believe that this is also the opinion of a lot of your top lawyers too? I did read last year a Portuguese lawyer saying that if Amaral and Cristoavo and the others were made to face trial, because of the way Portuguese law works there is a very high possibility of them being convicted, because for a case to have got this far a judge would have had to read the entire evidence and would say there is a strong case for them to answer. I also understand that in Portugal, it is not that common to have a trial by jury?

This is why I believe Amaral has come out now to do the rounds of the TV studios and speak to the Portuguese press, I do believe we are seeing his opening defence in his coming criminal case. I believe he is attempting to get in first with who ever is chosen to sit on the jury in his trial. I can't help thinking that this will have some influence too, I hope it doesn't, but unusually for me, I feel very pessimistic about his trial by jury.

In the UK if we stand trial by jury, we have the chance to question the jurors (well our solicitors do) and we have the right to request the removal of jurors if there is a reason or we believe there to be a reason why they should not be sitting on our case, is that the same in Portugal? Will Amaral and co have the right to object to any member of the jury?
Also I understand that in Portugal trial by jury, there are only 3 or four jury members? We usually have 12 members of the jury in England, I think although not absolutely certain that it may be 15 members in Scotland.
Portuguese legal system appears to prefer to have more in the way of what we call 'bench trials' here in Britain, thus where there is a judge or a panel of judges that collude to arrive at a verdict. We have this system but this is adopted in lesser trials for example, nearly every criminal cases start in the Magistrates' courts, cases like speeding offences, less serious motoring offences, debtors and small claims etc are handled entirely in the magistrates court. the vast majority of all our cases are dealt with in this way. However, the more serious offences are passed on to the Crown Court and are dealt with by judge and jury.

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Re Leonor and Gonc

Post by maria on Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:10 pm

Rosie

I revisited Leonor's case and gave my opinion on Goncs current activities on the other tag, one minute after this post of yours! There I say what I know about trial by jury and some details on Leonor as well.

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Hi Maria

Post by Rosie on Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:41 am

Yes I saw it and read it thank you, I found it extremely interesting. We also seem to be thinking along the same lines! :D

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Ad nauseum ... but that's a good idea

Post by maria on Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:35 pm

RTP1 is today repeating ad nauseum some Gonc's statements he made yesterday during 'great interview' given to this tv station.

1. Madeleine died in the apartement and her body has been moved twice (first probably to somewhere close to the beach, Smiths sighting) and then stayed in a fridge/freezer for the remaining three weeks until it was removed in the Renault (what an obsession for freezers!!!). The bodily fluids found reveal defrosting... although these traces coundn't be precisely identified, they were definetely human. The fridge/freezer couldn't not be identified, he had no time to do it before being kicked off.

2. The group planned the statements about the routine of watching the children and gave false informations. There are two plans each one written by one person which are contradictory.

And this is evidence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is a good idea that this is repetead, the legal teams will not miss it for sure.
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New line of attack

Post by maria on Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:49 pm

Correio da Manhã opened today a new line of attack. It seems 2 detectives from Metodo3 are being 'sue' by a former convict who stayed in jail with João Cipriano (uncle of Joana and accused of killing her) of extorsion and threats to his life in order to get information against Gonc. PJ at Faro are investigating the allegations.

Convicts are what he is down now for support and witnesses! If this convict exists, of course! And he will get all João's cooperation if need be, he is still in prison with much time to be tortured, of course!

I told you, torture charges court trial is coming up!!!


Last edited by maria on Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : incorrect info)
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Hi Maria

Post by Guest on Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:03 pm

Is Correio da Manhã the only Portuguese newspaper printing stuff like this?
Because I notice the British press are saying nothing.

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Of course!

Post by maria on Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:37 pm

Correio da Manhã is the 'official press release/leak point' of some PJ. It has been like this since ever, they played active roles in previous internal PJ wars and they even recorded (and used) private phone calls between a reporter and a PJ Director which lead to his dismissal. They had records of phone tapping which are absolutely confidential, must be authorized and analised by a magistrate and destroyed when the are deemed useless for the investigation: when the investigators raided the paper, the recordings had been 'stolen' that very same night and no computer traces of them.

Oh and Joana Morais is their site.

The rest of the press seem to give notice of the launch of the book and one or two things from the tv interviews.
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Thanks Maria

Post by Guest on Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:56 pm

I had a feeling that is what you would say. In other words take all they print with a pinch of salt. (I hope you know that saying)

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Re Mum

Post by maria on Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:21 am

Yes I do. But Martin Brunt used to take it with a BUCKET of salt! I think it's wiser.
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hiya again maria

Post by Guest on Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:27 am

mmmmmmmmmmmm now this is really intresting can we have the link of the article,

your bloggs are brill you really hit the nail on the head......................all of the time

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Re: The great Gonzo's 'evidence!'

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