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Window Debate

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Re: Window Debate

Post by Sabot on Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:11 am

Cath wrote:Gusting, that's the word I've been looking for Sabot.
You're probably right. We're having a sort of similar discussion over at PFA2. Sid thinks that door should have slammed shut when Matt entered the apartment or when an abductor left through the front door.
But the curtains could have prevented that, except when a gust of wind suddenly appeared.

Must have a look at that plan (again).

Sorry Rosie, I still haven't got that post about the shutters.
But basically, it started when DCB said : why aren't Dianne Websters fingerprints on the shutters (she's tried to lift them from outside, that idiot).
Then he's said : If you were going to try and lift the shutters wouldn't you wrap your fingers underneath and wouldn't the fingerprints be on the inside of the shutters at the bottom?

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_969.jpg

Right picture, looks like red powder at the bottom of the shutters.
Could have accidentally happened because the fingerprint lady spilled it while brushing outside.
But there's NO report about checking the inside or the edge of the shutters. Did they forget to do that, or is it left out of the DVD files?

Does anybody know if the Patio Doors got shutters as well?????

I saw your post on PFA, Cath, and I knew what you meant about Gusting.
Sometimes my kitchen door slams when the front door is open, but it doesn't happen all that often. It's to do with wind strength and direction and the angle of the door. All three are important, so the door wouldn't necessarily slam, and the front door was in the wrong place to cause it anyway.

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Re: Window Debate

Post by Royal on Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:50 am

Cath wrote:Gusting, that's the word I've been looking for Sabot.
You're probably right. We're having a sort of similar discussion over at PFA2. Sid thinks that door should have slammed shut when Matt entered the apartment or when an abductor left through the front door.
But the curtains could have prevented that, except when a gust of wind suddenly appeared.

Must have a look at that plan (again).

Sorry Rosie, I still haven't got that post about the shutters.
But basically, it started when DCB said : why aren't Dianne Websters fingerprints on the shutters (she's tried to lift them from outside, that idiot).
Then he's said : If you were going to try and lift the shutters wouldn't you wrap your fingers underneath and wouldn't the fingerprints be on the inside of the shutters at the bottom?

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_969.jpg

Right picture, looks like red powder at the bottom of the shutters.
Could have accidentally happened because the fingerprint lady spilled it while brushing outside.
But there's NO report about checking the inside or the edge of the shutters. Did they forget to do that, or is it left out of the DVD files?

Does anybody know if the Patio Doors got shutters as well?????

I do not think the patio doors have shutters, I have certainly never heard of that being mentioned!
Alroy

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Re: Window Debate

Post by maria on Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:41 am

Patio doors should have shutters, for comfort and safety. They probably were left open most of the day, but then down at night.

If you look carefully at the picture, you will notice that at each side of the shutter there is a small piece. It is a stopper, intended to prevent the shutter to fall inside when fully pulled up. The shutter can be open from the outside just using these stoppers as levers, no need to put your hand/fingers under the shutter itself. So, it is these stoppers that should be tested for fingerprints.
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Re: Window Debate

Post by Rosie on Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:09 am

Maria thank you for reminding me of that, I know you have mentioned this before and now something else has struck me, then someone who lives local or lives in Portugal would tend to know about these stoppers rather than a transient holidaymaker?

Again this is pointing to there being some inside involvement, or someone who lives local or lives in Portugal, they would know how to open these shutters from outside!!

I think if you study the picture of the patio doors you can see they have shutters and I believe I remember seeing those little knob things Maria is mentioning.

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Re: Window Debate

Post by Cath on Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:31 am

Yes Sabot, that's what I was thinking too. Front door in the wrong place to make the door slam.

Yes, it's been confirmed by someone who's been there the patio doors have shutters indeed.

And thank you again Maria (how many times now, I've lost count)

The fingerprint 'experts' seemed to have done a pretty lousy job. Why didn't they just remove the shutters/window and take it to a lab to test it with better stuff as that powder?
FGS a child's life is/was at stake.

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Re: Window Debate

Post by Rosie on Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:41 am

Cath that was definitely the window, it isn't the patio doors, the patio doors have a hedge in front the window has a white wall.

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Re: Window Debate

Post by Cath on Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:51 am

You're talking about my link or about that photo you posted (with the inlay)? Both are the window, yes.

My mistake was thinking the inlay (you posted) was a patio door. What I thought was tiles was in fact (Chris explained it to me) the windowsill.
The inlay is the window and so is that link.
Sorry for causing any confusion

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Re: Window Debate

Post by Rosie on Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:04 am

No problem, I thought I was missing something

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Re: Window Debate

Post by christabel on Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:18 am

Rosiepops wrote:No problem, I thought I was missing something

You are Rosie

OUCH !
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Re: Window Debate

Post by Rosie on Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:41 am

Bidiot!

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Re: Window Debate

Post by christabel on Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:50 am

Rosiepops wrote:Bidiot!

Bubbish
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Re: Window Debate

Post by Sabot on Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:59 am

christabel wrote:
Rosiepops wrote:Bidiot!

Bubbish

Bottox.

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Re: Window Debate

Post by maria on Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:27 pm

Amaral says that the only prints on that window were those of Kate's hand opening the window. Fair enough. Did the window stay open until they checked the prints, on the next day? Throughout a cold breezy night? Very odd. So, I believe it stands to reason that the window was closed sometime after Kate found it open or, more credible, after she opened it to explain to some cop/PJ how she found the window, by applying her hand on the glass. If this is so, where are the prints of the person closing the window after Kate opened it? Even if they are Kate's, doesn't matter, where are they?
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Re: Window Debate

Post by Catkins on Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:55 am

Good question Maria.....
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Re: Window Debate

Post by Sabot on Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:15 am

maria wrote:Amaral says that the only prints on that window were those of Kate's hand opening the window. Fair enough. Did the window stay open until they checked the prints, on the next day? Throughout a cold breezy night? Very odd. So, I believe it stands to reason that the window was closed sometime after Kate found it open or, more credible, after she opened it to explain to some cop/PJ how she found the window, by applying her hand on the glass. If this is so, where are the prints of the person closing the window after Kate opened it? Even if they are Kate's, doesn't matter, where are they?

As you say, Maria, one set of prints, albeit Kate's, is just not credible.

She could well have gone to the window to look out anyway.

And someone must have closed the window. If it was Kate she would almost certainly have left a print in doing so. Especially in panic mode.

With knowledge of DNA and Fingerprints that we have nowadays, the abductor would have been very careful about such a thing.

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Re: Window Debate

Post by Cath on Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:47 am

We don't always leave fingerprints when we touch something.
Yet it is amazing they didn't find more (useful or even partial) prints on the window, the shutters, the patio doors. No prints on the glass????

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Re: Window Debate

Post by christabel on Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:38 am

Cath wrote:We don't always leave fingerprints when we touch something.
Yet it is amazing they didn't find more (useful or even partial) prints on the window, the shutters, the patio doors. No prints on the glass????

Cath there was a print on the glass, it belonged to a GNR officer. As did the blood apparently found outside the apartment and on the bumper of the McCanns car, from A size 5 shoe.

trying to find that
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Re: Window Debate

Post by maria on Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:51 am

Chris, I believe that that GNR print was on the shutter...
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Re: Window Debate

Post by christabel on Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:10 am

maria wrote:Chris, I believe that that GNR print was on the shutter...

Maria this is all I can find at the moment.

Service Information

To: The Coordinator of the Investigation, G. Amaral

From: Assistant Specialist Irene Trovao

Subject: Identification of finger print

I inform you that according to report n║ 140/07 there is a single finger print with sufficient value for identification.

It was revealed with Dragon Blood and gathered from the side of
the living room window/door of Ocean Club apartment 5 A on 4th May 2007 after the disappearance of the child.

This morning Officer Silva delivered various
]fingerprints belonging to his officers who were on duty at the apartment on the night of 3 ľ 4 May 2007.

These were compared to the finger print which was
identified as being that of Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa of the Lagos GNR.

Signed
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Re: Window Debate

Post by maria on Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:37 am

But that was on the living room! And Madeleine's window?
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Re: Window Debate

Post by clairesy on Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:03 pm

Sabot wrote:Yes, there was such a load of rubbish printed, by the press and some sites.

There was the bald headed black man in the play park watching Madeleine, who seems to have been an off duty PJ officer.

Who was the tenth Tapas?


Hi sabot,

this is the person people referred to as the tapas tenth.Her name is Najoua,She is a fitness instructor,and was in the tapas restaurant the night Madeleine was snatched.She works for mark warner and works at the ocean club,she was running the quiz that night...........and after the quiz gerry asked her to join them all,which she did at around 9.30-10pm when kate discovered Madeleine missing..
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Re: Window Debate

Post by Cath on Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:53 pm

I forgot about that picture.
She didn't attend, the quiz was on Tuesday, if my memory serves me.

DCB1 reminded me of this article :
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/09/maddie-journalists-tried-to-break-into.html

There's also something about someone forcing the shutters up (without any damage) in the files.

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Re: Window Debate

Post by Sabot on Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:06 pm

Cath wrote:I forgot about that picture.
She didn't attend, the quiz was on Tuesday, if my memory serves me.

DCB1 reminded me of this article :
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/09/maddie-journalists-tried-to-break-into.html

There's also something about someone forcing the shutters up (without any damage) in the files.

So, The shutter was raised from the outside at a later date without any damage, and reported to the Police. Very interesting. I have already stated that this is possible, but I didn't know that the Police knew this.

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Re: Window Debate

Post by Cath on Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:11 pm

Yes, they knew it, even GA knew it. Conveniently forgets it though.
Found it in the files Sabot :


- Yesterday at 21.16 the Portimao DIC received a phone call from
a security officer who worked for the OC to say that a few
minutes ago somebody had forced up the shutters of the window of
the bedroom Madeleine had disappeared from. The undersigned,
together with two of his colleagues went to the scene, where
they saw the shutter was hanging obliquely in front of the
window and noted that it had been effectively forced open from
the outside. However, there were no signs of anyone trying to
breach the window.

- These facts were reported by the security guard.

- The guard said that the incident happened between 21.00 and
21.05, when he was making his 21.00 round of the block
containing Apartment 5 A and then walked down the die of 5 A,
down the road to the Baptista supermarket and then returned up
the same road, returning to the surroundings of Apartment 5 A
and saw that in that short space of time, someone who he cannot
identify as he saw nobody around, had approached the window and
forced the shutters. At about 21.06 he alerted reception and the
GNR.

- Immediately before he had been talking to a colleague,
opposite 5 A and 5 B and neither of them had seen anyone
strange, but a few moments earlier they had seen two journalists
-ľa man and a woman ľnear the bar, with logos from a Canadian
media channel stuck on their camera.

- Given the scenario, as well as the way the shutter had been
raised as well as the limiting factors that other people had
already been at the site and there was no guarantee of its
preservation, the procedure to examine for fingerprints was not
activated by the Portimao DIC.

- Some trips were made to Lagos in order to attempt to identify
journalists and TV stations, as well as any other persons
suspected, but this activity had negative results. Signed.


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm

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Re: Window Debate

Post by clairesy on Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:27 pm

hi cath

how come najoua didn't attend??Have you got a link of some sort so i can read that i haven't read that the quiz was on a tues night.I was sunder the impression she was asked by Gerry to join them on the night madeleine was taken,she was suppose to have sat at the table with them from around 9.30 until 10pm.She was suppose to have done that after the quiz was over.
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Re: Window Debate

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