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Does today's society favour the criminal?

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Does today's society favour the criminal?

Post by vee8 on Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:37 am

I thought I would open this thread on behalf of one of our new members, Robert Argiz. Subject, do we think society now favours the rights of the criminal over the victim? If so, why? Is it burocracy, cost, lack of determination, or is there something deeper, more sinister at work?
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Re: Does today's society favour the criminal?

Post by rosemary on Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:44 am

I think a lot has to do with the changing concept of punishment, rather than the actual "favouring" of a criminal. Also more emphasis on rehabilitation. Political correctness plays a part, the human rights lobby also.
A more educated and affluent society has produced a more liberal attitude toward the "underpriveleged" who commit crime. But the pendulum swings and people are fed up with liberalism nowadays.

It is said to be the mark of a civilised society that does not look simply for "vengeance", but seeks to understand the motivation of the criminal and then attempts to rehabilitate him/her.

Having said all this I personally feel that some crimes against the individual such as those committed by paedophiles do need a radical new approach. Itīs common knowledge that there is at present no medical cure for such a condition, but I think in the very near future a new kind of medical intervention will be found, one that does not target the male sexual organ i.e. carstration, but something along the lines of a chemical implant which affects the brain area that deals with sexual stimulation. Until such time lock em up and throw away the key.ī
Organisations such as CEOPS and others like them, plus a more educated public awareness of child traffickers, are helping to address some of the problem.

I asked myself a question the other day after posting on the Lisbon Treaty thread about paedophilia. The new EU definition is when he or she actually commits a crime, not before. So my question was...
Q When is a paedophile not a paedophile?
Any answers?

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Re: Does today's society favour the criminal?

Post by bluj1515 on Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:41 am

Vee, this question has been asked for ages, in every society. After Leopold and Loeb Illinois tried to make kidnapping a crime punishable by death. After they were found not guilty by reason of insanity states tried to eliminate that category. Every time there is a particularly grisly murder, especially against children, people are understandably angry and easily whipped into a frenzy. In school they had us read a report that was done into police departments and crimes. It featured the police complaining about lawyers and lawmakers and complaining that they favored the criminals, that they led the criminals walk free, that they should get out of the way and let the police do their job. It was something we'd all heard before and considered and we didn't know why we were assigned it. We were assigned it because it was commissioned and released in 1932.

If anything, victims' rights advocates and allowing victims and their families to speak at sentencing and the like has ensured that victims are given greater recognition and greater acknowledgment than at any point in the past. It was believed until the 1980s that victims simply had no role and no need for state support other than testifying at trial, etc.

Rosemary, the "liberals" that you speak of have ALWAYS been present and ALWAYS taken that stance toward the "underprivileged" and the commission of crime. "Boys' Town" is an example of such an institution. Boys' Town originally took poor and orphaned boys who had already had contact with the law.

Rehabilitation isn't a hallmark of civilized society; it is a hallmark of the Anglo-American administration of justice. It is one of the building blocks of modern jurisprudence. To get rid of it is to change the entire system. Perhaps we should consider that dirty, overcrowded, violent prisons that are privatized and money-makers is not the proper way to rehabilitate or to punish, for that matter.

Rosemary, the EU did not change the definition of pedophilia. I did not say they did. They removed pedophilia from the definition of "sexual orientations". This in fact tightened laws again pedophiles and took away from them one of their favorite arguments -- that abusing children is just another sexual orientation. This helped children, it didn't harm them.

There is no country in the world where "pedophilia" is a crime just like there is no country in the world where "being a robber" is a crime. You must commit an ACT or take tangible steps toward committing an ACT to break the law.

I have a question, Rosemary: if you think that the law and judges and police officers can examine thoughts and minds and nothing more and make a judgment that someone is a pedophile, would you trust the likes of Goncalo Amaral to make that determination? Do you really think he wouldn't abuse this power, wouldn't go after people he didn't like, wouldn't pick on the weak and maybe a little strange? Of course he would. He cannot be trusted with such power and placing such power into the hands of any police force creates a totalitarian state.

The kinds of pedophilia acts that the laws outlaw cover so much that it would be near impossible for someone to self-identify as a pedophile or be diagnosed as one without the law already being involved or without the pedophile breaking the law. That is all you can ask the law to do.

A pedophile is always a pedophile, in answer to your question. But the law cannot arrest someone without proof they have broken the law -- whether by joining a pedophile group or by downloading and watching child porn or by being too close to a group of children or a school, etc. The law cannot examine the thoughts of certain people that a select group decides is suspicious and decide, "Pedophile" and throw away the key, which seems to be the situation that you desire.

The law cannot determine who is a pedophile until the pedophile asserts themselves publicly in some way and the action is reported to the police department. There is no thought police.
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Re: Does today's society favour the criminal?

Post by rosemary on Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:41 am

Blue I have had this conversation with you and others on the Lisbon thread on PAF2 and you are still misreading what I said and what I am questioning.

Let me make one thing absolutely clear at the outset. I have NEVER advocated "Thought Police". Dear God, where did I ever suggest such a thing? That is plainly ridiculous.
I merely begged the question of the "redefinition" of Paedophilia. Because to remove it from the sexual orientation/proclivities section of the criminal Act must surely beg the need to redefine it in some other way. It is a "condition" of some sort, is it not?
I then posed the purely philosophical question that if it can only be defined by action, does it therefore not exist as a "passive precondition"? Hence my question..when is a Paedophile not a Paedophile? It was the concept of the purely "passive" form that interested me, and how it could or would, or might or might not, manifest itself. It still does.
Of course one cannot prosecute a thought process. That is quite plainly ridiculous. And impossible. I can readily understand and agree with the reasoning behind the decision to remove it from that section of the Act but I asked only, where does that leave it? In Limbo I presume.
I am looking at from the purely philosophical, moral and yes, possibly quasi religious one, and NOT from the legal one as you keep on reiterating, (as if I am not only deaf but short sighted!).

To be or not to be, a paedophile. Do they ever ask themselves that question I wonder? And at what crucial self defining moment in their lives do they take that fateful step from passive to active? This is what I find interesting. They are and always have been abusers of children, active OR passive, essentially because the thought must inevitably lead to the deed. Most people agree with that. It is only a question of time.

No, sadly we cannot prosecute someone ever (!!!) for their thoughts. I merely said that it is perhaps a pity one cannot do so - in the case of paedophiles. I stand by that.

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Re: Does today's society favour the criminal?

Post by bluj1515 on Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:39 am

Ah, I understand now Rosemary, sorry if I've caused offensive. :)
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Re: Does today's society favour the criminal?

Post by rosemary on Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:38 am

Glad it is clear now Blue.

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Re: Does today's society favour the criminal?

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