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OLD NEWSPAPER REPORT........

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Re: OLD NEWSPAPER REPORT........

Post by dianeh on Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:39 am

Completely agree Rosie, and very well written.

This bit deserves a further comment.

They were the men present when Leonor Cipriano was tortured, so if they did not torture her then who did? It is rumoured that thugs from outside were brought in to carry out the torture on the woman, if this was the case, then these men have to be complicit in conspiracy to torture, they were present, why did they not stop it? Who brought the thugs in?


In this country, if it looked as though it could not be proven who did the torture, but that the torture occurred, and the police were present, then they would have been charged with conspiracy to commit torture, which means they only had to know about it, not take part in it.

Why wasnt this done during that trial?
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Diane

Post by maria on Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:06 pm

In THIS country, everybody is treated as retarded. That is quite visible from the arguments shown by these people all along.
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Re: OLD NEWSPAPER REPORT........

Post by dianeh on Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:54 pm

Maria

What can I say but



I know it is a serious subject, but that comment deserves a clap.



And here is another one.
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Re: OLD NEWSPAPER REPORT........

Post by Catkins on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:39 pm

No Police Force is perfect.............It would seem that the Portuguese Police Force and Law in general is really not good. It is the everyday Portuguese person I feel sorry for !!
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Re: OLD NEWSPAPER REPORT........

Post by bluj1515 on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:23 am

Catkins wrote:No Police Force is perfect.............It would seem that the Portuguese Police Force and Law in general is really not good. It is the everyday Portuguese person I feel sorry for !!

It is not that they are incapable of being perfectly fine police officers and there probably are many who are. But it's clear that among certain members and groups breaking the law and machismo is tolerated, encouraged, and propagated. It is a shame. No wonder the people don't trust them, think twice about even going to them with information.
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Re: OLD NEWSPAPER REPORT........

Post by Catkins on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:37 pm

Lets hope that now they see what is happening with Amaral and other PJ officers that they will be less afraid, and in future speak out about bad behaviour from the Police....
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Re: OLD NEWSPAPER REPORT........

Post by maria on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:20 pm

But there are also cases where the 'bad behaviour' is being rewarded... I've read the news about that yesterday will try to find it and post it with an explanation.
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Re: OLD NEWSPAPER REPORT........

Post by Rosie on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:36 pm

bluj1515 wrote:
Catkins wrote:No Police Force is perfect.............It would seem that the Portuguese Police Force and Law in general is really not good. It is the everyday Portuguese person I feel sorry for !!

It is not that they are incapable of being perfectly fine police officers and there probably are many who are. But it's clear that among certain members and groups breaking the law and machismo is tolerated, encouraged, and propagated. It is a shame. No wonder the people don't trust them, think twice about even going to them with information.

Personally I think it goes far deeper than that, I think that there are *unofficial echelons* within the Portuguese judiciaria, that policemen and women and detectives, know very well what is happening, but they cannot speak because they know if they do their careers will be over and maybe even worse something may "accidentally" happen to them! Even if they wanted to whistle blow they would be far to scared to do so.
Of course what happens in situations like this is, that people get to know what happens within these agencies and the good people tend to stay away, they do join the police force etc because they have been intimidated before they even think of applying, so mainly only the bad eggs will apply to become PJ inspectors and so the corruption goes on and on and it will continue to go on like this until the Portuguese government grow a spine and get a grip on their police and force the changes that are needed through. To do this they have to start with a long and far reaching inquiry into police corruption and brutality and they have to put in charge a good person who is *incorruptible*! I am not saying that every detective is corrupt, but I am saying this corruption is so far reaching that is is actually strangling the Portuguese policing system.

This is a job for the politicians!

Meanwhile, they could make a start by arresting Goncalo Amaral, making him a witness and trying to get him to talk about the appalling farce that was the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance. I believe that this man actually knows something, but he has chosen to keep quiet. WHY?

Could it be because if he speaks, he knows it will make a complete mockery of the conviction of Leonor Cipriano for her daughter's apparent murder? (Little Joana's body has never been found and neither has any incriminating evidence that specifically points to her being harmed in any way).

What about if during the course of the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance, something emerged that completely cleared Leonor Cipriano of the murder of her daughter?

Would you trust a convicted criminal liar (Goncalo Amaral) to tell the truth about this and reveal it? Knowing that this would bring hell itself down upon his head? Remember at that time he was already an arguido named in the torture of Joana's mother, Leonor and was facing a criminal trial! (Later convicted of concealing evidence of Leonor's torture)

Well would you trust him to tell the truth?

What about if during the course of the Madeleine investigation something turned up which categorically linked the abduction of Joana Cipriano, to that of Madeleine McCann? Would you trust Goncalo Amaral to tell the truth about this?

What about if the link itself is the disgraced former PJ coordinator? Not saying it is of course, I am only asking the question, after all something weird was going on, how can a detective of Amaral's supposed experience make every single mistake there was to make in the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance? This to me is just not feasible, it cannot happen, a rookie detective, first day on the job would not have made those mistakes! There were so many, that the mistakes themselves have become highly suspicious, again not saying it is true, but these mistakes almost look like they have been made on purpose to deliberately frustrate the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance!

I believe that Goncalo Amaral has himself become the story and *IF* there is any corruption, then his paymasters will not be liking what is happening and they will be getting distinctly uneasy.
Amaral is a loose cannon, who is now beginning to flounder badly, trouble is he is seriously injured and injured animals can be very dangerous! He himself could be in danger, be better for him if he took himself into a police station and confessed what he I think he may know about Madeleine's disappearance!

The Portuguese government and their judiciary may just as well do something because until they do and until Madeleine is found and Leonor Cipriano receives a fair trial, this is NOT going to go away, *NOT EVER*!

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"RICARDO PAIVA SHOULD RESIGN, HIS POSITION IS UNTENABLE - IF HE DOES NOT RESIGN, THEN SACK HIM!
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Re: OLD NEWSPAPER REPORT........

Post by Catkins on Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:28 pm

Rosiepops wrote:
bluj1515 wrote:
Catkins wrote:No Police Force is perfect.............It would seem that the Portuguese Police Force and Law in general is really not good. It is the everyday Portuguese person I feel sorry for !!

It is not that they are incapable of being perfectly fine police officers and there probably are many who are. But it's clear that among certain members and groups breaking the law and machismo is tolerated, encouraged, and propagated. It is a shame. No wonder the people don't trust them, think twice about even going to them with information.

Personally I think it goes far deeper than that, I think that there are *unofficial echelons* within the Portuguese judiciaria, that policemen and women and detectives, know very well what is happening, but they cannot speak because they know if they do their careers will be over and maybe even worse something may "accidentally" happen to them! Even if they wanted to whistle blow they would be far to scared to do so.
Of course what happens in situations like this is, that people get to know what happens within these agencies and the good people tend to stay away, they do join the police force etc because they have been intimidated before they even think of applying, so mainly only the bad eggs will apply to become PJ inspectors and so the corruption goes on and on and it will continue to go on like this until the Portuguese government grow a spine and get a grip on their police and force the changes that are needed through. To do this they have to start with a long and far reaching inquiry into police corruption and brutality and they have to put in charge a good person who is *incorruptible*! I am not saying that every detective is corrupt, but I am saying this corruption is so far reaching that is is actually strangling the Portuguese policing system.

This is a job for the politicians!

Meanwhile, they could make a start by arresting Goncalo Amaral, making him a witness and trying to get him to talk about the appalling farce that was the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance. I believe that this man actually knows something, but he has chosen to keep quiet. WHY?

Could it be because if he speaks, he knows it will make a complete mockery of the conviction of Leonor Cipriano for her daughter's apparent murder? (Little Joana's body has never been found and neither has any incriminating evidence that specifically points to her being harmed in any way).

What about if during the course of the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance, something emerged that completely cleared Leonor Cipriano of the murder of her daughter?

Would you trust a convicted criminal liar (Goncalo Amaral) to tell the truth about this and reveal it? Knowing that this would bring hell itself down upon his head? Remember at that time he was already an arguido named in the torture of Joana's mother, Leonor and was facing a criminal trial! (Later convicted of concealing evidence of Leonor's torture)

Well would you trust him to tell the truth?

What about if during the course of the Madeleine investigation something turned up which categorically linked the abduction of Joana Cipriano, to that of Madeleine McCann? Would you trust Goncalo Amaral to tell the truth about this?

What about if the link itself is the disgraced former PJ coordinator? Not saying it is of course, I am only asking the question, after all something weird was going on, how can a detective of Amaral's supposed experience make every single mistake there was to make in the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance? This to me is just not feasible, it cannot happen, a rookie detective, first day on the job would not have made those mistakes! There were so many, that the mistakes themselves have become highly suspicious, again not saying it is true, but these mistakes almost look like they have been made on purpose to deliberately frustrate the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance!

I believe that Goncalo Amaral has himself become the story and *IF* there is any corruption, then his paymasters will not be liking what is happening and they will be getting distinctly uneasy.
Amaral is a loose cannon, who is now beginning to flounder badly, trouble is he is seriously injured and injured animals can be very dangerous! He himself could be in danger, be better for him if he took himself into a police station and confessed what he I think he may know about Madeleine's disappearance!

The Portuguese government and their judiciary may just as well do something because until they do and until Madeleine is found and Leonor Cipriano receives a fair trial, this is NOT going to go away, *NOT EVER*!

This man is an EXPERIENCED LIAR...would he EVER tell the TRUTH ?
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Re: OLD NEWSPAPER REPORT........

Post by Catkins on Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:29 pm

maria wrote:But there are also cases where the 'bad behaviour' is being rewarded... I've read the news about that yesterday will try to find it and post it with an explanation.

As in cash back handers Maria ?..(meaning paid to keep quiet).
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Re: OLD NEWSPAPER REPORT........

Post by maria on Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:51 pm

Accused of, but in fact set up because they decided to go ahead with an inquiry in spite of the 'warning adice' of other PJ officers (and lower rank too)
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Re: OLD NEWSPAPER REPORT........

Post by Catkins on Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:59 pm

maria wrote:Accused of, but in fact set up because they decided to go ahead with an inquiry in spite of the 'warning adice' of other PJ officers (and lower rank too)

Ahh..I understand..........
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Re: OLD NEWSPAPER REPORT........

Post by Rosie on Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:24 am

Catkins wrote:
Rosiepops wrote:
bluj1515 wrote:
Catkins wrote:No Police Force is perfect.............It would seem that the Portuguese Police Force and Law in general is really not good. It is the everyday Portuguese person I feel sorry for !!

It is not that they are incapable of being perfectly fine police officers and there probably are many who are. But it's clear that among certain members and groups breaking the law and machismo is tolerated, encouraged, and propagated. It is a shame. No wonder the people don't trust them, think twice about even going to them with information.

Personally I think it goes far deeper than that, I think that there are *unofficial echelons* within the Portuguese judiciaria, that policemen and women and detectives, know very well what is happening, but they cannot speak because they know if they do their careers will be over and maybe even worse something may "accidentally" happen to them! Even if they wanted to whistle blow they would be far to scared to do so.
Of course what happens in situations like this is, that people get to know what happens within these agencies and the good people tend to stay away, they do join the police force etc because they have been intimidated before they even think of applying, so mainly only the bad eggs will apply to become PJ inspectors and so the corruption goes on and on and it will continue to go on like this until the Portuguese government grow a spine and get a grip on their police and force the changes that are needed through. To do this they have to start with a long and far reaching inquiry into police corruption and brutality and they have to put in charge a good person who is *incorruptible*! I am not saying that every detective is corrupt, but I am saying this corruption is so far reaching that is is actually strangling the Portuguese policing system.

This is a job for the politicians!

Meanwhile, they could make a start by arresting Goncalo Amaral, making him a witness and trying to get him to talk about the appalling farce that was the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance. I believe that this man actually knows something, but he has chosen to keep quiet. WHY?

Could it be because if he speaks, he knows it will make a complete mockery of the conviction of Leonor Cipriano for her daughter's apparent murder? (Little Joana's body has never been found and neither has any incriminating evidence that specifically points to her being harmed in any way).

What about if during the course of the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance, something emerged that completely cleared Leonor Cipriano of the murder of her daughter?

Would you trust a convicted criminal liar (Goncalo Amaral) to tell the truth about this and reveal it? Knowing that this would bring hell itself down upon his head? Remember at that time he was already an arguido named in the torture of Joana's mother, Leonor and was facing a criminal trial! (Later convicted of concealing evidence of Leonor's torture)

Well would you trust him to tell the truth?

What about if during the course of the Madeleine investigation something turned up which categorically linked the abduction of Joana Cipriano, to that of Madeleine McCann? Would you trust Goncalo Amaral to tell the truth about this?

What about if the link itself is the disgraced former PJ coordinator? Not saying it is of course, I am only asking the question, after all something weird was going on, how can a detective of Amaral's supposed experience make every single mistake there was to make in the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance? This to me is just not feasible, it cannot happen, a rookie detective, first day on the job would not have made those mistakes! There were so many, that the mistakes themselves have become highly suspicious, again not saying it is true, but these mistakes almost look like they have been made on purpose to deliberately frustrate the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance!

I believe that Goncalo Amaral has himself become the story and *IF* there is any corruption, then his paymasters will not be liking what is happening and they will be getting distinctly uneasy.
Amaral is a loose cannon, who is now beginning to flounder badly, trouble is he is seriously injured and injured animals can be very dangerous! He himself could be in danger, be better for him if he took himself into a police station and confessed what he I think he may know about Madeleine's disappearance!

The Portuguese government and their judiciary may just as well do something because until they do and until Madeleine is found and Leonor Cipriano receives a fair trial, this is NOT going to go away, *NOT EVER*!

This man is an EXPERIENCED LIAR...would he EVER tell the TRUTH ?

When it starts affecting him and his *liberty* yes I think he will, especially if he thinks he is going to be blamed and convicted for something he hasn't done! Don't forget basically in Amaral, we are dealing with someone of low intellect and a bully. He has gone and got himself completely out of his depth, his only real option is to tell exactly what he knows and quickly, because his time and his options have all but run out!

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"RICARDO PAIVA SHOULD RESIGN, HIS POSITION IS UNTENABLE - IF HE DOES NOT RESIGN, THEN SACK HIM!
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Re: OLD NEWSPAPER REPORT........

Post by dianeh on Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:54 am

Leaving aside possible corruption in the PJ, it is important that the processes and procedures are reviewed in light of what has occurred in the McCann case. A set of procedures to follow in missing children cases should be created and their implementation a matter of priority. And they must be mandatory, with sanctions against officers that dont use them. More training, better procedures, enforcement of procedures, constant review of procedures, world best practice etc. All of these things need to be done. The PJ must learn from the failure of this case, and implement procedures to stop it happening again.

The judiciary also needs to take stock and look at aspects of this case. The arguido system, the secrecy laws and the enforcement of the secrecy laws, search warrants, phone taps, etc etc, all of these things need to be examined, and see if there needs to be changed made for dealing with missing children's cases. Basically a review of the legal process, with recommendations made to parliament.

It is not about criticism, it is about improvement. We learn from our mistakes, whether a person, a company or a country. There will be many things that were done properly, in fact most things were probably done properly. But it is the things that werent done properly, or done at all, or things that didnt work,that need to be investigated and new formal procedures at both the investigation and judicial level be proposed.

It is not failure which defines us (or our country) but how we deal with failure. To use failure to become stronger is what makes us succeed.
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