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Is the tide turning?

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Is the tide turning?

Post by vee8 on Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:59 pm

Well it appears that the tide is turning against gonzo.
Even the Carriers of Manure finally seem to be distancing themselves from him.


http://www.correiomanha.pt/noticia.aspx?contentid=256AB748-9F60-4B53-90C4-BA1722303ABB&channelid=00000010-0000-0000-0000-000000000010
September 12, 2009 - 00h30

Figueira is suspicious and fearful
Five years without Joana

Five years after the disappearance of Joana Cipriano, the people of Figueira, where she lived, have not forgotten the case and keep alive the suspicion of the unknown. And almost all believe that the girl was abducted or sold.


Joana, eight, disappeared from the village near Portimao on 12 September 2004, at 20:30, after going to a coffee shop close to home at the request of the mother.

Several residents say that the disappearance of Joana "sparked" a feeling of insecurity in the village and few believe the thesis of PJ - validated in court - that the child was killed by her mother, Leonor, and her uncle, João

In a short time, the trial will begin in which Gonçalo Amaral is accused of the torture of Leandro Silva, partner of Leonor Cipriano.


Can our Portuguse residents comment on this? WAS public opinion ever that much against Leonor, or did she have a general feeling of sympathy and support?
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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by Catkins on Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:57 pm

I still think that not as many of the Portuguese people are behind him as Amaral, Bennett and the internet nasties think !!
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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by Guest on Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:10 pm

I agree Catkins its all propaganda by the few and the sheep are happy to swallow anything that feeds their hate.

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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by maria on Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:52 pm

Gossip is a national and official pastime around here. So too is building and herding flocks. We saw it with Madeleine: at a first impulse, people bonded with the victims, both the child and the family. Until the moment when 'someone' needed a qick fix for the problem, a cover up of the incompetence (or the true reasons of the fact?...). Then, we can easily identify the herding stage: the shepherd shouts 'wolf, wolf!' (or in these cases, 'It was the mother, it was the parents!') and there we have the dogs moving the flock the best they can (goats always get free somehow) and positioning themselves to protect it from the pack, and barking like mads. This goes on until the shepherd himself becomes a nuisance, with all that noise, without any wolf in sight or ever looking interested in the flock. Which is strange, for wolves. Then the dogs start getting fed up and go some other way, leaving the sheeps free to wander around in the field and the shepherd shouting to the winds and himself. The dogs are then free for another task and sheeps can finally feed in peace.

In this story, dog Correio da Manhã just found some goats (who never believed the shepherd's story) and some sheeps who now realise that the situation may be much more complicated than they first were told, and that the pack may well be much more clever and therefore more dangerous than they first thought.
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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by maria on Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:15 pm

Well, I think I haven't given a straight answer.

First, and something you must bear in mind, is that Correio da Manhã is probably the most widespread newspaper in this country (1.5+ million copies). It is a tabloid, a master in gossip, therefore, an efficient opinion maker. In the small villages, no one buys newspapers, everybody will go to the coffe shop or some other meeting point and read the only paper around:Correio da Manhã.

When Joana vanished, the whole village looked for her and no news of any suspicion about Leonor came up to the general public. Only one week later did PJ deem necessary to visit the house where the little girl lived. And there the gossip started: they were poor, the house wasn't clean, the girl looked unhappy, the mother was wearing red clothes, etc. You can not imagine how damaging comments like these can be in small communities. Actually, at national level. People started to associate her disappearance with neglicence. Poverty with abuse. And as soon as GA through Correio da Manhã launched his phenomenal theory, people was ready to accept that Leonor was the author (at least co-author) of whichever GA was planning to announce as having happened to Joana.

So, no, when Leonor more needed support she did not get it. Only from her partner, who always stood by her. If the tide is changing, that is, if people are starting to review their opinions, that's an excellent sign. But this piece of news is a sign IMO: Amaral is of no use anymore, Leonor will be freed, and there is a need to pave the way for a new 'public opinion' on the subject, and probably on the Madeleine case as well.
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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by rosemary on Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:56 pm

What interesting postings Maria! Fascinating. Especially the shepherd and the sheep metaphor. Brilliant, thankyou. And it confirms too my suspicion that Goncalo comes from peasant stock himself and will judge others according to his own experiences! I believe he is a violent man who believes passionately in the use of brutality as a force for good. And now the sheep are wandering off.....

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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by Pedro Silva on Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:28 pm

Portuguese TV news channel RTP 1, has shown today the news about Joana.

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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by vee8 on Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:52 pm

rosemary wrote:What interesting postings Maria! Fascinating. Especially the shepherd and the sheep metaphor. Brilliant, thankyou. And it confirms too my suspicion that Goncalo comes from peasant stock himself and will judge others according to his own experiences! I believe he is a violent man who believes passionately in the use of brutality as a force for good. And now the sheep are wandering off.....

Agreed, a very clever piece of writing Maria. If I may, I would like to share that with some others.
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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by Pedro Silva on Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:59 pm

The news about Joana shown at RTP 1, are the same Vee posted today, with this information: there are still court processes about the case. Almost all villagers of Figueira believes she was sold or kidnapped, not murdered.

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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by maria on Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:02 am

Vee, I feel very flattered whenever you, any of you, feel that something I posted is worth sharing with others. Please feel free to copy it elsewhere.
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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by vee8 on Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:18 am

maria wrote:Vee, I feel very flattered whenever you, any of you, feel that something I posted is worth sharing with others. Please feel free to copy it elsewhere.

Don't sell yourself short, Maria, that was an excelent post.
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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by Pedro Silva on Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:51 am

I agree, excellent post indeed, very well written.

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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by vee8 on Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:41 am

Some more.
Joana, aged eight, disappeared from the village of the county Algarve Portimão on 12 September 2004, around 20:30, after a coffee shop close to home at the request of the mother.

In a statement to Lusa, many residents say that the disappearance of Joana "sparked" a feeling of insecurity in the village, "requiring the attention and constant monitoring."

I concentrate more on not only my children, but also the other children I see on the street," says Fernando Antonio, father of two children aged three and six years.

I remain ever attentive to all the movements of strangers and even acquaintances, especially when approaching the children, because you never know who around us," he said, adding that mistrust increases when "outsiders are spotted trying to talk to minors.
Cristina Campos, mother of a girl of eight, shares the same sentiment: "Even the neighbors began to suspect".

As the case was never resolved, we do not know who we can trust," he argued, saying that he lives "in constant alarm" when the daughter is not around.

Come to me where the idea to Joan and the other English girl [Madeleine McCann] that disappeared from Praia da Luz, three years later," he said.

The parents were more relaxed, letting the children play on the street alone. Some children remained in the street until late at night, which does not happen now," he told Lusa the owner of an establishment of the village, who asked not to be identified.

According to the company today has also "is not common for children six, seven and eight years doing errands for parents."

Now, parents do not send their children to the messages, because now live in a climate of fear," he said.

Residents of Figueira believe that the disappearance of Joana Cipriano "has never been properly clarified.

Few believe the thesis of the Judicial Police (PJ) that the child has been killed by his mother, Leonor Cipriano, and his uncle, John Cipriano.

Most residents believe that Joanna Cipriano "may have been sold by a relative, or taken by someone who was very fond of children," emphasizing that "continue to run the village rumors about this possibility.

It is said a lot. It's people and with good reason: where there's smoke there's fire ...", said one of the residents.
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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by Guest on Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:15 am

I think Joanna has been dealt a terrible injustice by Amaral and he should also be made accountable for this as well.

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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by Pedro Silva on Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:29 am

I agree with you my friend Mulleena.

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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by christabel on Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:38 am

Mulleena wrote:I think Joanna has been dealt a terrible injustice by Amaral and he should also be made accountable for this as well.

Amaral will get whats coming to him, no doubt about that Mulleena! Hopefully soon
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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by maria on Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:27 pm

He will get what's coming no doubt!

For example, his appeal against his condemnation is stopped stuck as the jurors have not been paid 16.000 euro yet. This morning SIC news, citing 'I' paper. Couldn't find 'I' paper's site.

I don't know who should pay this, but as Amaral has been condemned it is probably him. Leonor's appeal has already been accepted, remember?
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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by Sabot on Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:29 am

Jeez, this is amazing. I didn't know any of this. And not for want of trying to find out.

But I suppose I should have known that certain quarters would keep it quiet.

There has been colosal twisting of facts.

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Post by maria on Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:28 pm



There will be today, on SIC Companhia das Manhâs an interview with Carlos Anjos/Moita Flores about Leonor's appeal.

Although I wouldn't hold my breath with these two.

However the only fact that Joana comes up, is already positive. And also that the presenter, Rita Ferro Rodrigues, introduced the piece as news about 'a disappeared child, because that's what happens, as she never was found', that is very good.

Let's see what comes out.
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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by Sabot on Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:10 pm

Thanks for that, Maria. Thank God for some honest Portuguese translations.

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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by Pedro Silva on Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:46 am

Thanks for telling me my friend Maria.

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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by maria on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:18 am

Well, I told you that I wasn't holding my breath about those two. And I did very well.

I'm sure JoMorass will have made a video and will translate this interview. But I think that there is the very positive aspect
of the interviewer, there is no bias when posing the questions. She asked them based on real facts and as they flew from the two interviewees' answers/considerations. She, for instance, asks why did João so long after the facts happen change his confession; did or did not Leonor fall down the stairs; there were no convictions (in the torture case) because they (Leonor and/or the court) didn't know the exact person(s) involved; but Amaral had been convicted; were they (Leonor, João and Marcos) playing around with the truth then; nowadays there is no need to find the body in order to establish murder/the murderers; what possibly may have João to change his mind; why aren't disfunctional families watched out; did they think this was a plausible case; etc.

The two interviewees were the same as usual: long gone are the times where a confession was everything (inquisition), now other means of proof are required; it was proved in court that both killed Joana in that house; they are playing with PJ, PJ inspected 49 different locations indicated by 'them'; it is more complicated but there is no need for the body to be found, it was proved in court; the new confession's handwriting is not João's; Leonor was spanked in jail by inmates and blamed the police; even if she fell downstairs, that wouldn't contaminate the case; it was proved that the bruises were made in succession, not all with the same 'age'; the pictures were taken 5 days after the questioning; her lawyer testified in court that she was present when Leonor confessed; for an average intelligence person it is clear that there is juridical manipulation; this is not a retrial, only a possible revision by the penal execution court(?); this way, João will not get worse than he is and will see his sister out earlier; Amaral was set up because of another case - Maddie; Amaral 'carries a cross' (verbatim) after the Maddie case; Marcos suggested to their lawyer that if they agreed in framing Amaral he would drop his case about the others, which was refused; Amaral hasn't been convicted of torture, he was convicted of knowing about falsified documents and not acting on it; Amaral has not been convicted of anything, there is an appeal pending; among latin Peoples, there is a higher rate of domestic abuse, both over children and women; it happens in all layers of society, not only the lower classes; only for 20 years do we have the chart of children's rights; society are not interested in violence over children; one gives the name of a murdered woman to a street in one's city and that's it [Moita Flores did that in Santarém]; it is a very cynical world, and here they linked to the Face Oculta case [I already told you about it], but no success, the reporter didn't allow that route; this case is one more accident (or incident?) in the whole Joana story, won't go anywhere; and other things that I'm sure JoMorass will carefully bring to us.

So, in a way, the tide is turning, we now have serious reporters conducting the interviews, and it is very positive. And another thing, no news on their 'defence' argument, they keep repeating the same over and over again. They are trapped, they don't have anywhere else to go.
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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by Sabot on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:35 am

Maria, it doesn't matter to me whether Leonor and Jaoa are guilty or not. Beating up witnesses and suspects just will not do. It pre- empts a right to Justice. It is not civilised.

It happens throughout The World, so Portugal is no better or worse than anywhere else.

People who have been convicted under these circumstances should be freed immediately, and paid compensation.

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Re: Is the tide turning?

Post by Rosie on Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:22 am

Well, I can point to a part of this interview, which if I am understanding it correctly, I think is actually untrue and it happens to be very important.

The reason why Leonor could not identify her torturers, is because they placed a blue plastic bag over her head, before they forced her to kneel on glass ashtrays to torture her.

This is the technicality that allowed her torturers to get away with their crimes. There is also an appeal lodged to bring these alleged transgressors back to trial.

When Leonor made her statement admitting to the murder of her daughter, AFTER she had been tortured, she had NO legal representation present.
So I do not understand them saying she had her lawyer present.

When Leonor appeared in court, because at the time it was making Portuguese legal history, for a murder trial *WITHOUT* a body, Leonor should have again confirmed her confession in court, she did NOT.
So again this is yet another reason why Leonor's trial should be declared a mistrial.

Leonor had a doctor as an expert witness in court, who testified that in her opinion, Leonor's injuries were as a result of being tortured. She said that it was impossible for Leonor to sustain such injuries by a fall down the stairs.


I find this interview to be nothing but another completely shambolic set of total inaccuracies.

For instant, if Leonor fell down the stairs as the five PJ said she did and this resulted in her all of these injuries, then why are they now saying she was attacked in prison?

In actual fact she was NOT attacked in prison, it was the prison governess when looking at Leonor's injuries insisted that photographs were taken and that she attend hospital.

One more thing, this interview forgets to mention, it has actually been proved in court that Leonor Cipriano was tortured.

Whether the law in Portugal has changed since Leonor's trial or not, what remains a point of law is that at the time of her trial, according to the law and the statute of Portugal, it was highly unusual for a trial to be held without a body, I think only one time before Leonor has ever been recorded in Portugal.

Again no matter what picture these interviewers want to give of Leonor and her trial and of Goncalo Amaral, in May 2009, Goncalo Amaral was found guilty of concealing evidence which is tantamount to perverting the course of justice, he was found guilty of perjury, which is lying under oath.

They say he is not guilty because he has appealed, this is another misrepresentation of the facts.

By that same token, is he more guilty because Leonor's lawyer has appealed against the lenient sentence of Goncalo Amaral?

Are the others who were acquitted of torturing Leonor Cipriano, really guilty because an appeal has also been lodged against their acquittal? An appeal to have them brought back to court and face trial again?

Goncalo Amaral is guilty and he will remain guilty, until the court says otherwise. He is guilty and he is currently serving an 18 month suspended prison sentence.

Are these interviewers also forgetting this? Yet Another trial that Goncalo Amaral will soon be facing, another trial for the torture of Leandro Silva, Joana's stepfather and Leonor's partner.

Translated by Google Translate.


Joana Cipriano
INFORMATION RELEASE

November 18, 2009

Supreme Court begins investigation on
under Appeal Sentence Review of Leonor Cipriano

We are very pleased to announce that the 5th Section of the Supreme Court initiated investigations of proof to establish the details of the new facts reported by the mother of Joana Cipriano, and corroborated in substance by the child's uncle (John Cipriano) by their mother, stepfather of the child, and other independent witnesses, as part of Extraordinary Appeal Review Ruling on Case No. 330/04.2JAPTM brought on 8 June 2009 by Domingos Maria Leonor Cipriano.

Thus, in its judgment signed on 12 November this year, Insignes Counselor Souto Moura and Carmona Ramos Soares da Mota, considered it essential to establishing exactly the whole truth concerning the disappearance of Joana Cipriano, make another hearing of Leonor Cipriano and João Cipriano. As a result, ordered the implementation of these new hearings, which will be carried out, respectively, by the Hon. Judge of the Court of Enforcement of Penalties of Évora and the Hon. Judge of the Court of Enforcement of Penalties of Lisbon with jurisdiction over the last prisoner.

The family of Joana Cipriano, with obvious exception of his uncle a murderer, or congratulate their Insignes Counselor for your interest in determining the whole truth about the disappearance of the girl Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro, also giving thereby a legitimate basis for the concerns even before also expressed by Insignes Counselor Santos Carvalho and Costa Mortágua.

Counsel the mother and stepfather of Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro

Marcos Aragão Correia.

(Prof. Céd.. Adv 427M)

And The Portuguese Version

Caso Joana Cipriano
Informação à Comunicação Social

18 de Novembro de 2009




Supremo Tribunal de Justiça inicia diligências no
âmbito do Recurso de Revisão de Sentença de Leonor Cipriano

 
É com muita satisfação que informamos que a 5ª Secção do Supremo Tribunal de Justiça deu início a diligências probatórias no sentido de apurar os detalhes dos novos factos relatados pela mãe de Joana Cipriano, e corroborados na sua essência pelo próprio tio da criança (João Cipriano), pela mãe de ambos, pelo padrasto da criança, e por outras testemunhas independentes, no âmbito do Recurso Extraordinário de Revisão de Sentença do processo nº 330/04.2JAPTM interposto em 8 de Junho de 2009 por Leonor Maria Domingos Cipriano.
Assim, em acordão assinado a 12 de Novembro do corrente ano, os Insignes Juízes Conselheiros Souto Moura, Soares Ramos e Carmona da Mota, consideraram ser essencial, para efeitos do apuramento exacto de toda a verdade relativamente ao desaparecimento de Joana Cipriano, proceder a nova audição de Leonor Cipriano, bem como de João Cipriano. Em consequência, ordenaram a realização destas novas audições, as quais serão levadas a cabo, respectivamente, pelo Exmo. Juiz do Tribunal de Execução das Penas de Évora e pelo Exmo. Juiz do Tribunal de Execução das Penas de Lisboa com competência sobre o último recluso.
A família da Joana Cipriano, com óbvia excepção do tio assassino, quer congratular os respectivos Insignes Juízes Conselheiros pelo seu interesse em apurar toda a verdade relativamente ao desaparecimento da menina Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro, dando também por esse meio legítimo fundamento ás preocupações já antes igualmente manifestadas pelos Insignes Juízes Conselheiros Santos Carvalho e Costa Mortágua.
 
O Advogado da mãe e do padrasto de Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro,
Marcos Aragão Correia.
(Céd. Prof. Adv. 427M)

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Goncalo Amaral Your Time Is Nearly Up!


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