Justice 4 ALL Madeleine McCann Family
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If..........

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If..........

Post by Pumpkin on Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:31 pm

If this woman really is involved in Madeleines disappearance, she is on notice that she could be caught soon. We cannot assume she has the normal motherly feelings, because which mother could put a child and her parents through what the McCanns have been put through.

What will happen to Madeleine now the net is closing in?
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Re: If..........

Post by AlexG on Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:02 pm

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Last edited by AlexG on Tue May 18, 2010 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: If..........

Post by dianeh on Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:56 pm

There have been an number of people caught over the years with illegally adopted children, and these children have often been stolen or abducted. The new parents do not kill them if they get caught.

If Madeleine was illegally adopted, it is unlikely the new parents would harm her, not after raising her for all this time. Even in other circumstances, it is easier to just leave her in a strange country on a street corner, she would be found, and no links to where she has been. There is no need for anyone to harm her. If she is still alive, I dont think that the detectives closing in would cause her harm.

As for the Aussie woman, I dont know what to make of it. If she was picking up a new daughter, then I doubt she will come forward, so the only hope is that someone who knows her will turn her in. If she was not getting a new daughter, then she has nothing to lose by coming forward.
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Re: If..........

Post by clairesy on Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:46 pm

hi pumpkin,

i hear what saying about her not having normal motherly feelings etc...although i must disagree a tiny bit.

some of these women who are desperate for a child but cannot have one will go to any lengths..and if they have the money then that's not so hard for them to do either.

Just a thought now but...your post as actually given me a little bit of a different way of looking at this lead.

if the woman wasn't aware that madeleine had been snatched(because she might of been at sea or weren't aware of the latest news breaking out(only 3 days later) then she could very well have asked someone if they have her NEW daughter.It wouldn't be such a odd thing to ask if she assumed she was about to adopt a child from someone.There are countries where people will travel o because they believe adopting a child is cheaper and easier and it avoids going through all the legal papers etc.

Was she even aware the child she was about to have would be a stolen one.
Personally i don't think that that is the case but its another way of looking at it i suppose.

Some women (not all)who cannot have kids of their own go to extremes to get one...snatching them from their hospital bed etc trying to rob them out of their prams from their mums etc.I wouldn't say they don't have motherly feelings because in all honesty the very fact they have strong motherly needs is the reason so many women go to these extremes int he first place.
It doesn't make it right of course but there you go.

Wanting to be a mammy and love a child,to have that special thing rips the hearts of some women.They have to have it its a illness in the end and they need it to fulfill their lives.That might be the reason she hasn't handed Madeleine over yet.How do you give up something you have yearned for years?

to be honest i hope this is the case...because i would hate to find out madeleine as been taken by a peadophile ring.
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Re: If..........

Post by Marilyn on Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:01 pm

I'm still hanging onto the illegal adoption possibility .. and I know why, it's because Madeleine would be physically unharmed. If this woman is indeed rich; possibly spoilt too, and nothing in life has been denied to her .. then she may well have rationalized that the McCann's have 3 children and so taking 1 would be "fair" .. in her screwed-up logic. Maybe also not wanting to separate the twins either so she chose the eldest. Sorry, but I am capable of speculating too & it's because it's a great deal of wishing thinking going on in my head.
Maybe this is what happened .. but it doesn't follow that she would hurt her after 2 years of bonding just to escape being caught. My hope is that she leaves Madeleine in a safe place and risks that nothing can be traced back to her.

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Re: If..........

Post by Rosie on Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:57 pm

dianeh wrote:There have been an number of people caught over the years with illegally adopted children, and these children have often been stolen or abducted. The new parents do not kill them if they get caught.

If Madeleine was illegally adopted, it is unlikely the new parents would harm her, not after raising her for all this time. Even in other circumstances, it is easier to just leave her in a strange country on a street corner, she would be found, and no links to where she has been. There is no need for anyone to harm her. If she is still alive, I dont think that the detectives closing in would cause her harm.

As for the Aussie woman, I dont know what to make of it. If she was picking up a new daughter, then I doubt she will come forward, so the only hope is that someone who knows her will turn her in. If she was not getting a new daughter, then she has nothing to lose by coming forward.

I agree with Diane, I am very much a positive thinking person, although I can be "analytical" at times, I prefer to keep myself positive. I am definitely a glass half full sort of person and try to find the positive in everything and everyone (until proven otherwise). I see negatives in this latest news like everyone else, but I also see a lot of positives to take away. I also trust the McCann private detectives because they have forgotten much more than I will ever know about being a detective. If they, when in grasp of ALL the facts, (which we are not) think it was the right time to go public with the knowledge they have been investigating, long before we were ever told of it, then for 'whatever' reasons they came to that conclusion, then I trust them - implicitly. They are experienced detectives, with over 60 years *real time* experience between them, they are not some armchair detective sleuthing from any old crusty long forgotten internet conspiracy theory, or some new one doing the rounds;


  1. These kind deluded armchair detectives can make every single claim under the sun because the idiot half witted fantasists that write them will never have to prove anything they write, perhaps they should stick to writing books, where fantasies are the order of the day? (And less damaging)
  2. Have no concept of the damage they are doing to real, living people and their professional lives, their family lives and their friends etc.
  3. Even if they do realise the harm they are doing, they appear to have no compunction about doing it, unless their pathetic attempts at armchair/internet detecting, turn around and bite them on their backsides.

We find an awful lot of these people on forums like the 3 A's and the Madeleine Foundation, where their number one qualifying rule is to churn out utter bilge and negativity and try and ridicule anyone at all who tries to find a dear little missing child. If this means trashing the experience and work ethics of two highly trained, highly experienced former head policemen, then this is what they do. I read one of those idiots yesterday called these detectives the dimwitted duo, or some such pathetic nonsense. Can you believe that some fat ugly **** for brains creature sat behind his/her monitor and actually wrote this and no doubt believed it, they actually think that they know better and more than these two former detectives, who have had unimpeachable careers and a whole string of successes too numerous to list here? They would rather believe a convicted liar and a disgraced former detective who was sent down the road to buy pastries for tea in the last part of his career, because he had proved to be a liability, corrupt and a tortuous liar? Beggars belief really doesn't it?

Well it does beggar belief until you realise why such creatures are doing this, they actually would prefer to believe that the parents of Madeleine killed their daughter and that these dear people who like the detectives they employ, have never put a foot wrong in their lives and again like the detectives they employ, they have done immense good and actually helped people and they carry on doing this even now in the face of severe adversity.

Nah those unmentionable creatures that have "something of the night about them" actually want to believe the worse about these parents.
They want to believe the worse about the detectives they employ 'TO FIND A MISSING ABDUCTED CHILD!'
They want to believe the worse about people who have never doubted them.
They want to believe that Brian Kennedy is corrupt and actually say this and think nothing about exposing Mr Kennedy's son, who has nothing to do with where his father chooses to spend HIS money.
They make up lies and start a thread of with a lie and by the time the thread has progressed one or two posts later, the lie has become a fact and the cretinous creatures are all falling over themselves to add their own 'imagined' tidbits to. (A bit like 60 reasons and that other horror story written by Fatwa man himself - The Truth of The Lie) Even the title of that stupid factless bit of conjecture, makes no sense, a bit like the "Walter Mitty" character that wrote it really. Maybe Amaral should call his next book "Integrity? What's Integrity?" In fact maybe the lame brain Bennett and Amaral could get together and write the next one? (This would save court time and money when they get sued for defamation and slander)

Yep these people would rather believe all this, than actually admit they got this whole sad story horribly, horribly wrong, apologise like normal decent human beings would do and put an end to their lies, their horror stories and their apparent love of revelling in child pornography and the making of of some of the sickest things I have heard in my life about this poor child and her father and her father's friend.

They would stop all of this and try to return their brains and their minds back to being a normal decent human being again. But they do not want to do this, they don't want to do it because they actually enjoy doing what they are doing! Sick perverts!

So yes I agree with Diane and prefer to keep my mind on the positive.

If ( and I did say IF) this woman said to have the "Aussie" accent has been complicit in being involved in the abduction of Madeleine McCann, 1) 'IF' she was involved in some way, then it actually does not necessarily follow that she was the actual "adoptive parent" to be, (if this is what the plan was), she could have been a trusted person an "employee" ordered to go and take charge of the child, on the next leg of the handover. In fact, I would be surprised if she was the "new parent" and not a designated carer.
2) IF this was NOT the point where Madeleine was being handed over and this woman (who must recognise herself by now) was NOT complicit in any way, then why has she not come forward? Even if she was in that club waiting for some drugs of some description, she could come forward and speak to the detectives and explain, it is doubtful they would do anything other than take her story down and after further inquires rule her out of the investigation, her purchasing a few lines in a club is NOT exactly unusual and to experienced detectives this would not be pounced upon, if true, it would just prove helpful in ruling her out. End of story ans he just forgets about it.
3) Of course she could have been there to take charge of a BIG consignment of drugs which would definitely make her of interest to those that investigate such drops etc. This would in turn explain why she has not come forward. 4) BUT if this was the case then for those that say that this woman would not ask where her "new" daughter was in a club, then it is very unlikely she would ask where the drugs were, especially if they were a large smuggled amount.

That aside, IF this was Madeleine being handed over and from there Madeleine has been placed with new parents, those parents bought that child because they wanted a child to love, no doubt they were desperate for a child, they have had her for over 2 years and have no doubt raised her as their daughter, grown to love her fiercely as you would do a daughter, then what on earth makes you think that these "new parents" would all of a sudden turn around and kill that child? This to me makes as much sense as those that accused her real parents of doing much the same thing and then cruelly and coldly concealing her body in various un-findable places before finally and unceremoniously disposing of her body.

If Madeleine is with adoptive parents, I do not believe that they would harm a hair on her head. If by some chance they did this and Madeleine's body was discovered now, this would make what they did cold blooded child infanticide and would almost certainly result in them being incarcerated for the rest of their lives. However, if they were discovered with Madeleine and had been found to have cared for her, loved her, tended her when she has been sick, educated her etc etc, then despite her being the most famous abducted little girl in the world, I doubt if the penalties would be as harsh as if they now turned around and killed her.
Remember IF they ordered a child, they gave specific details of what kind of child they wanted, if they were educated people etc, the chances are, they would want a child from the sort of parents that the McCanns are, intellectual and professional. If they wanted a child around this age, resembling Madeleine to replace a child they lost, then this child could easily fit into their family, in every way and could simply take up where the other child unfortunately ceased. Birth certificates and therefor passports etc would not be a problem. As Madeleine grows, her identity will become harder and even the coloboma, would not be too much of a problem, as although unusual many children do have this.

Remember also at the time of Madeleine's abduction, no one dreamed that this would take off the way it did and then refuse to go away. The people that abduct child in order to sell them to people, would have known and prepared for a fuss, but would have assumed like it "has before", that it would soon settle down and people would soon lose interest and the press and media would soon move on to another story, one thing is for sure, they would NEVER in a million years have bargained for what followed after they took Madeleine.

However, in my opinion as time passes, the people who have Madeleine are less likely to be detected, unless we have a report like this from a witness, which leads to a child, who can then have a DNA test if necessary.

People have always asked 'why Madeleine' my stock answer to that would be 'why not?' Why any child? Madeleine could have been unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time and happened to fit the details required.

So I trust the private investigators, and I also trust, that we are in no way privy to all the information about this latest news and they would have their reasons for going public and for sure everything we have all thought of, they would have already crossed that bridge long before we came to it.

I firmly believe there is a reason for every single thing they do and let be known in public and to accuse these former detectives of inventing all of this because it is missing children's week in Australia, is a bit below the belt, if they did this then they could be accused of wasting police time and not only that, if in fact they did this, then the next time they went to the public for help, no one would believe them.

I still have very quiet hope that this is a breakthrough, maybe not in the way we think it is, or thought it was, maybe it was NEVER that, this is just what we and the media assumed? I am still adamant that ever since Raymond Hewlett came on the scene, the pieces of this jigsaw began slotting together and now more than ever, i think we are very close to a conclusion in the case of dear little Madeleine and I hope and pray with everything in me, that it is a happy one and we are soon going to see Madeleine and her parents and family reunited.
I also believe that when we discover where Madeleine is and what happened to her, we will also discover what happened to Joana Cipriano, i believe that some kind of child adoption racket was being operated out of Praia da Luz, or somewhere on the Algarve and I believe that there are some known faces involved too and like I have always said, something sinister is happening in Portugal to children and the truth WILL come out and I believe we are now seeing the very beginning of this.

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Marilyn and Clairesy

Post by Rosie on Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:46 pm

The points you both make are excellent points and I would not treat your points lightly because each of them have very sound psychological footing and offer feasible and plausible explanations of how a childless woman, or a childless couple would think and react.

The obvious is that a person (and that person is usually female) can have such a strong and real biological urge nurture a child, that it becomes everything in that person's life, to the point where all reason and logic fly completely out of the window.

There are well documented cases of women entering maternity wards, abducting a child and then taking that child and caring for them as their own. Often these women have planned for the child, they have actually faked a pregnancy, their growing bodies announcing to the world (and their families and friends and neighbours) that they are expecting a child and everyone around them is none the wiser when suddenly this person produces a child! There have even been cases when wives have managed to fool their husbands about having a child, often the husband is away fro long periods and is not surprised when the child is suddenly born early when the husband is away and unable to get back home in time!

There are other cases where babies have been taken where the woman has not got a cat in hell's chance of getting away with the deception, but yet they still do it and then sooner or later they are caught. There is a very famous case of a baby taken from a London hospital maternity wing, who wasn't found until weeks later. Also the case of Abbie Humphries, from the Queen's Medical Centre in Nottingham.

And there is this case of an identical twin girl abducted while her mother lay sleeping just feet away.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/four-arrested-after-baby-girl-abducted-from-ward-is-found-650467.html

It is still happening and it is happening all over the world.

So the abduction of Madeleine, maybe because she fitted what a prospective parent/s wanted, is not and never would be much of a surprise to me.

If Madeleine is being held by such people then the chances are she would be in good health and well cared for, educated etc etc and if her new parent/s were monied people, then the chances of this child being educated and having her health care outside of the normal system rise considerably. These parent/s would have the money to keep the contact this child has with others at an absolute minimum while caring for her every need. In fact how many times has it been documented that there really isn't any need to do this either, as previously abducted children have been reunited with their parents after being away for years and then it has been discovered that these children have nearly always been in the public eye and it is this very act that manages to fool people that may have a suspicion or two, that the child they look at nearly every day, the child that passes their house on the way to school, the child that plays with their child etc, cannot possibly be the child the whole world is looking for, it is too far fetched for words, but those people should bear this in mind "Truth is Often Stranger Than Fiction"!

As for these people not having "motherly" (maternal feelings), well it is these very same maternal feelings that have got out of control and become all too consuming that often drive a person to abduct a baby or a child "to love" in the very first place!

If this is the type of person that has Madeleine, then I have every hope that she will be found not only alive, but very much alive and safe and well and happy. Madeleine could very well be speaking another language by now and believe she is actually part of this family she is now in, may have been told that this family she is now with was ALWAYS her real family and that her other mummy and daddy were not really her mummy and daddy, but only people that were nice and kind but looking after her for her real family. The age Madeleine was when she was abducted, she probably would have understood this, accepted it and learned to live it and now probably has virtually forgotten it.

There is another scenario that I have placed in the lounge because I think it is too sensitive to be broached here, but I would be interested in reading people's views.

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Re: If..........

Post by Pumpkin on Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:45 pm

I take the points about an illegal adoption, Marilyn and Clairesy, but I can\'t imagine, Clairesy, that the parents wouldn\'t know the adoption was illegal. I think if you are told to wait outside a bar and your daughter would be delivered, you could really guess that something isn\'t quite right!

Seeing as Madeleine is six years old now, she could tell people where she has been or at least give the names of schoolfriends or the name of the school she went to (assuming she was sent to one). In any case she is old enough to give some information about her life and the people looking after her. Even if the woman who everyone is looking for isn\'t the woman who has Madeleine she could lead the police to those who really have her, so it is still \"dangerous\" for everyone involved.

Clairesy I absolutely agree with what you say about some women who are desperate to have children will go to any lengths and that in their own way they love the children they take. But then can it really be supposed that whoever has her (if this lead is in fact really a lead) is capable of leaving her on the street, in a church, etc after two years to save their own skin? How much would that say about their parental feelings? Apart from that why would someone take a four-year-old who is going to be homesick and who will remember her family for far longer than a baby. How can keeping a frightened, sad, homesick little girl who wants her mum and dad be classed as maternal love?

I don\'t suppose we know more than a fraction of what is really going on seeing as our so-called information is from the papers, which were sued before for lying! As AlexG so rightly says we just have to hope that this new lead is a step in the right direction!
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Re: If..........

Post by clairesy on Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:19 pm

Hi pumpkin,
i see what your saying although in all fairness illegal adoptions are going on every single day and we never hear about those little children.Thats the type of situation i am talking about.

Maybe this woman was under the impression she was adopting or receiving a child that was maybe going to be discretely taken adopted and never heard of again like many many many others are across the world everyday.

I believe ben needham was illegally adopted to.Im not sure how they work around it...weather they keep the child somewhere for some time until they are old enough to be not reconginsed...or wether they change there appearance before they are sold....illegal adoption isnt something ive had much experience in (thankfully lol) but i would imagine its pretty straight forward buisness for those involved...after all its been somthing they have been doing for years and years and years. They know the ropes, how to keep the kids hidden.Hair dyes and hair cuts,change of clothes(from girl to boy) for a couple days until they are passed on and get into their new country....fake passports and all sorts of things.Madeleine could be wearing her normal long hair now...but she sure as hell wont look like the madeleine the whole world knows..Fitting in fine and not looking sad and scared anymore??A child skipping happily down the road with a mum speaking in a aussie accent doesnt stand out as a little english 3 year old depserate to find her parents anymore.

I aint sure whats happened to madeliene.I only hope she hasnt been taken for peadophilia reasons.
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Re: If..........

Post by Pumpkin on Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:46 pm

Hi Clairesy
Have about 3 seconds to myself (which I why I post so early usually! Itís the only time I get to myself!)
I see what you mean about illegal adoptions happening on an everyday basis. I just meant that in this particular case, she would probably have to know it was not a legal adoption, but like you I believe she could no way have banked on the media coverage of Madeleine.
Regarding Ben Needham, I wonder if we will ever find out what happened to him. I have seen the age progression picture (of him at 18) and what a shock that must have been for his mother. I remember seeing the McCanns' reactions to Madeleines age progression picture and there was "just" a two year difference there.
Have a nice day, Clairesy! Great discussing with you!
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Re: If..........

Post by clairesy on Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:55 am

hi pumpkin!!

ive also wondered if ben knows now that is was abducted.After the age progression photo etc...if he as seen it would he come forward?Th thing is(and i don't mean this in anyway cruel nasty or insane etc) but he was taken as a very small child..a toddler...he was brought up by other people and to him THEY are is loved ones...his family his friends...they all make a circle of life and love around him and anyone else who he doesn't know hasn't got that effect on him.

Would i be insane to suggest that he might not even want to grass up the only parents he as ever known? He might not want to be ben needham.
Madness isn't it...how a once probably traumatised kid who cried for his mammy might now have forgotten her(probably as done) and as bonded with other people...his new mum and dad...new siblings or family members,friends and a way of life he as become accustomed to and a life that he loves maybe to!!!

Would it be fair to BEN(not anyone else) to take that away from him???Hmmmm of course i think if they find him he should be told of whats gone on,and those responsible arrested and jailed for ever because of the trouble and heartbreak they have caused to bens real family.....

but for ben....would he really want that??I bet ya he Would be devastated...kind of like being dumped and unwanted..alone and not with anyone..in his eyes his real family would be behind bars....they have lied to him al his life....he isn't who he as been living as for the last 18 years.

And then there is this other family(his real family) who claim to be his real parents...he doesn't know them,feel love for them or anything..what a terrible lonely scary and confusing thing for a adult who finds out they aint who they really are hey!!Their whole lives have been pretend, a made up family that wasn't ever ment to be have lived happily for years together....and then suddenly just as fast as it happened its been shattered.

Im not saying his abductors shouldn't be brought to justice because i think they should...but im soo sorry for ben because if he was to ever find out the truth he would be totally ruined.
But at the same time i hope he dos find out the truth.

If madeleine as been adopted into a family somewhere by now she would have settled into whatever life she as been given...maybe goes to school even....probably talks differently....and as friends and family members who love her.
Imagine taking her away yet again from that? One time is bad enough...but twice??
And im not saying she should be left where she is....
i think she should be found and returned to her real family no matter how long shes been missing....

Im just trying to imagine what it would be like for all the bens and all the Madeleine's in this world.Do you rip their hearts out again...or let them settle...whats best for them....the family are heart broken but have the children moved on and forgot?Got happy lives and settled nicely.God what a sick world hey.

All of the horrible things in this world that are forced upon some folk.......others cannot even begin to imagine how that feels for them unless they have walked a little in their shoes and felt the realness of it.

If she as been adopted into a nice family somewhere then Madeleine's situation is probably worse for her parents than what it is for her.Bizarre isn't it.
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Re: If..........

Post by bluj1515 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:31 am

I can see how indeed, Madeleine may have grown used to her situation, and it is the McCanns who are suffering. It is strange how the mind allows this. But her life is a lie, as would Ben Needham's be, also. Obviously both children and parents would need serious psychological counseling to be welcomed back into their real family, etc.

Are any of you familiar with the story of the children of the "disappeared" in Argentina, during the dictatorship? http://www.cuckoografik.org/trained_tales/orp_pages/news/news42.html

Many of them were illegally adopted and ripped from their imprisoned parents, and received by the highest members of society as their "children".

A movie about it won an Oscar and the Medal d'Oro. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/630391134X/thevanishedgalle/

One of the lessons is - these people know. They know. They suspect it. And they turn the other way.
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Re: If..........

Post by Pumpkin on Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:23 pm

Hi again Clairesy

Do you know the series "Judging Amy"? There was a similar scenario about a child who was legally adopted (but it wasn't as straightforward as that, of course!) and then it turned into an illegal adoption. Obviously, this is fiction, but it still shows that there are no winners. When I saw this episode I wondered how realistic a scenario it actually was. Many good points are made.

http://www.youtube.com/user/StarryMikage#play/uploads/4/rpPZnRfOO9o This is part 1, the others you will find on StarryMikage's channel.

Interesting about the "disappeared", Bluj. In East Germany children used to get taken away from their parents and passed on to others, too.
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