Justice 4 ALL Madeleine McCann Family
You need to be a member of this forum in order to view its entire contents.
We welcome applications to join the forum from genuine caring compassionate people that wish to support Mr Mrs McCann in their never ending resolve to finding their daughter Madeleine and bringing her back home where she truly belongs.

All applicants are checked out so people with no sense, no moral compass, no rationality and only half a brain cell and even less grip on reality and who are devoid of all logic - need NOT apply!
This also applies to ex-members, who no longer want to be members, yet spend their lives viewing this forum and telling people they no longer want to be members.
This is said without prejudice with no one in particular in mind.

What is an arguido?

View previous topic View next topic Go down

What is an arguido?

Post by vee8 on Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:54 am

I'm looking for a bit more clarification here, perhaps from Maria, Pedro or Alex. It is commonly understood that the Portuguese term 'arguido' means 'Suspect' but I am sure I read in the press, a long time ago, it actually means 'Person of Interest?' Well hewlett has been described by the investigation team as a 'Person of Interest' but he has never been classified as a suspect, at least not officially, as far as I know. Could it be that the anti's in general, and bennett in particular, when calling Kate and Gerry suspects have, all along, been wrong?
avatar
vee8
Grand Member
Grand Member

Number of posts : 3113
Location : suffolk
Registration date : 2008-06-24

http://www.madeleine-adestinybegun.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: What is an arguido?

Post by maria on Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:07 am

Vee

Yes, arguido is NOT suspect, is indeed person of interest, person that should argue about something.
avatar
maria
Grand Member
Grand Member

Number of posts : 1128
Location : Portugal
Registration date : 2008-07-04

Back to top Go down

MARIA & ARGUIDO'S.

Post by Royal on Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:06 am

As I understood the status of Arguido actually meant Kate and Gerry were in fact 'suspects' which imposed certain conditions on them, for instance, they were not allowed to discuss the case in public nor were they, besides other restrictions, free to leave the country? If I remember rightly being Arguido's they could also refuse to be interogated or give statements to the police, Perhaps I am wrong about this Maria and I'm sure you will give us your more enlightened knowledge about this status!
Alroy.

Royal
Star Poster
Star Poster

Number of posts : 858
Location : Manchester
Registration date : 2008-08-09

Back to top Go down

Re: What is an arguido?

Post by Rosie on Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:42 am

Arguido ~ male person of Interest

Arguida ~ female person of interest

People given arguido/a status are officially treated as a suspect in a crime.
None of the three have been arrested or charged.


How is arguido status given and what does it mean?

Under Portuguese law either the police or a person being questioned can request that they be formally named as a suspect, a process called arguido.

Arguido is the person who has been accused of being the perpetrator.
This is just an accusation made exactly at the end of the investigation.

A person can ask for arguido status if they feel the line of questioning is implying that they are a suspect. This gives them more rights than a witness would have.

What rights does an arguido have?

Arguido status gives a range of legal protections, such as the right to remain silent and the right to a lawyer during questioning.

Sometimes when they [the police] suspect someone, they call that person in as a witness.

They don't constitute him as arguido and they extract as much information from him as they can, because as a witness he cannot refuse to collaborate with the police.

(As I have ALWAYS asked, if Amaral really wanted the 48 questions answered, then WHY didn't he have the McCanns made witnesses, instead of arguidos? This way they would have been obliged under Portuguese law to answer the questions, instead of having the the RIGHT to remain silent under the suspect of arguido and arguida, that Amaral himself awarded them? )

Now the moment he is constituted as arguido, as the defendant, then he can not only refuse to answer questions because they can incriminate him, but also he has the right to be accompanied in the questionings by his own solicitor.
Once someone is an arguido they can be arrested, but only if there is sufficient evidence.

What action can the courts take against an arguido?

The police can use their powers to bring the suspect before a judge to ask for restrictions to be imposed on their movements.
If they do, they could be banned from leaving their house or the area, or held in custody while the case continues.
In this case, the suspect is not subject to a judge's order, but has signed an identity and residence statement.
It prevents the person moving house or leaving the country. If they stay anywhere other than their given place of residence for more than five days they have to notify police.

(And the police allowed the McCanns to leave the country, on the understanding that they would return if needed for questioning, that need NEVER arose and the Portuguese Attorney General, CLEARED the McCanns of any involvement in their daughters disappearance. He also said there was no definable or logical or rational reason to believe that they had anything to do with their daughter's disappearance)

The reason why Amaral had them made arguidos was to shut them up, silence them so they could not speak out about what was happening in the investigation, it gave him a free hand to do and say what he wanted.
He did not keep his own country's supposedly strict secrecy laws.

Leaks, smears, lies and the McCanns could do and say little.

It also served Amaral's purpose to have them made arguidos, because it produced the media attack on their characters and this is exactly what he wanted.

He couldn't very well taken them into the police station in Portimao and say they fell down the stairs could he?

Also it was rumoured that Robert Murat was given arguido status to *protect* him from the press, so he had an excuse not to answer their questions.

Perhaps someone should ask Amaral more about Robert Murat!

Maria isn't there different levels of the status of arguido? Apparently the McCanns were on the lowest level, which allowed them to leave the country and return home to the UK.

Also don't forget On September 15th 2007 just 8 days AFTER the McCanns were made arguidos, a new procedural penal code was introduced in Portugal, making it necessary for there to be evidence against the citizen before they could be made an arguido.
"Before this date it wasn’t necessary. You could be made an arguido without actual evidence against you.

This was why Amaral rushed to have them made arguidos, if he had waited a further 8 days, he would be UNABLE to have done so, because he KNEW he had NO evidence against them!

Stinks doesn't it?

But hey lardy loony, don't spend all your blood money, I hear you are going to be needing rather a lot of it, oh and your houses and cars etc!

_________________
no way
Goncalo Amaral Your Time Is Nearly Up!


"RICARDO PAIVA SHOULD RESIGN, HIS POSITION IS UNTENABLE - IF HE DOES NOT RESIGN, THEN SACK HIM!
avatar
Rosie
Admin
Admin

Number of posts : 4358
Registration date : 2008-04-27

Back to top Go down

Re: What is an arguido?

Post by maria on Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:12 pm

Rosie

An arguido given a TIR (term of identity and residence) shall not leave his address for more than 5 days without notifying the police. As it happens, McCanns' residence is in Rothley, so there they went and there they stayed. If they left for more than 5 (consecutive) days I wouldn't know, which police force would have to be informed of I also don't know.

Only one small correction to your post: everybody involved in an investigation, witnesses included, are subject to the secrecy law. By making the McCanns arguidos, Amaral wasn't trying to shut them up or protect them, he tried a longer shot: he hoped that the prosecutor would take that to court and get a more serious measure than the TIR, but even if couldn't get that he at least would scare people and in a way accuse them. And yes, you are right, the law changed and a couple of days later he wouldn't be able to do it.
avatar
maria
Grand Member
Grand Member

Number of posts : 1128
Location : Portugal
Registration date : 2008-07-04

Back to top Go down

ROSIEPOPS, ARGUIDO'S?

Post by Royal on Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:52 pm

Hi there Rosie, thanks for the explanations on Arguido status, however there is one question I am curious about, as you said Amaral actually imposed Arguido status on Gerry, Kate, and Robert Murat which in itself is actually beneficial for his own purposes restricting the suspects movements, but is also both detrimental and advantageous to that 'person/s of interest'. As you have pointed out it does place considerable regulations and restrictions on a person made Arguido including a kind of 'house arrest' also denying him/her the freedom to discuss the case publically or expressing their innocence through the newspapers and media? Why then would any "innocent" person who at that point in time only being considered as 'suspicious' voluntarilly apply for Arguido status? If as I have said that person is completely innocent he or she would surely wish to co-operate with the police and not deliberately place a gagging and movement restriction on themselves by actually "requesting" Arguido status? However, having said that, even if innocent I can see the necessity and benifits of having a solicitor present during PJ questioning, (interogations) ????


Alroy.





Royal
Star Poster
Star Poster

Number of posts : 858
Location : Manchester
Registration date : 2008-08-09

Back to top Go down

Hi Maria and Alroy

Post by Rosie on Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:13 pm

Maria, does this TIR apply to everyone that is an arguido, or is it applied separately? I ask this because I remember reading somewhere, back at the time they were made arguidos, that their status of arguido was at a lower level, which enabled them with the permission of the PJ. to leave the country and return to their home address in the UK.
Much was made of them leaving Portugal after being made arguidos, but as I recall, they were actually wanting to return to the UK some weeks before, but waited *voluntarily* until this questioning came. They knew this interrogation was coming, because they had actually been warned by the PJ it was and this is why they remained in Portugal. It took so long to come, that they then began to make preparations for their return to the UK and once Amaral was informed of this, he then brought them in for official questioning. I think he engineered this to try and make them look guilty, it was all part if his plan to apply pressure and blacken their characters. Like I said, he would never get away with them falling down a flight of steps at the police station.

What really bugged Amaral is that he was beaten at every twist and turn by the McCanns intellect and their tenacity and their absolute commitment to searching and finding their daughter. He didn't bargain on this, in his arrogance and ignorance, I think he actually thought he could bully the McCanns into some sort of false confession, just to get him off of their backs!


Amaral has been playing games with them all along. Everything he did he had an ulterior motive for. Rendering them incapable of publicly defending themselves suited him down to the ground, pity he did not adhere to his own secrecy law.

Another thing that is not widely known is that this investigation, need never have been covered by the secrecy act in Portugal, this was done at the behest of Goncalo Amaral. Goncalo Amaral evoked the secrecy order on the Madeleine investigation, it was him that stopped the pictures of Madeleine being circulated and it was Amaral that prevented the e-fit of suspects being published and circulated.

The police and GNR who meant to be searching for Madeleine, did not even have a photograph of her, so they had no idea of who they were looking for.

This was all entirely Goncalo Amaral's fault!

Wonder why?

Alroy, Amaral had the McCanns made arguidos and this afforded them certain rights and then he leaked to the press that Kate had remained silent during the questioning, without telling them that Kate was only exercising the rights that he gave her when he made her an arguida!

With regard to Robert Murat, there is some reports that actually say it was he that requested he be made an arguido and I am beginning to think this is true and if it is, then why would he have done this?

_________________
no way
Goncalo Amaral Your Time Is Nearly Up!


"RICARDO PAIVA SHOULD RESIGN, HIS POSITION IS UNTENABLE - IF HE DOES NOT RESIGN, THEN SACK HIM!
avatar
Rosie
Admin
Admin

Number of posts : 4358
Registration date : 2008-04-27

Back to top Go down

ROSIE

Post by Royal on Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:31 am

Quite so Rosie, why would any 'innocent' person request Arguido status? As I see it if you have nothing to hide you would be expected to voluntarilly agree to questioning and co-operate totally with the police investigation! You did say a person made Arguido would be allowed to have legal representation when being interviewed, I would have thought this would be an 'entitlement' even in Portuguese law, it certainly would be the case here in the UK!
Alroy.

Royal
Star Poster
Star Poster

Number of posts : 858
Location : Manchester
Registration date : 2008-08-09

Back to top Go down

Re: What is an arguido?

Post by sadie on Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:22 am

But, Alroy, i dont think that they are allowed a solicitor if they are just witnesses without Arguido status, are they Rosie, maria, Alex, Marcos?

So if you had been a bit naughty, maybe it would be best to be made an arguido. In Kate and gerrys case though, they hadn't been naughty; it was just used as a method of shutting them up ....and to put the frighteners on them! IMO of course
avatar
sadie
Star Poster
Star Poster

Number of posts : 953
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-11-22

Back to top Go down

Re: What is an arguido?

Post by maria on Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:06 am

Maria, does this TIR apply to everyone that is an arguido, or is it applied separately? I ask this because I remember reading somewhere, back at the time they were made arguidos, that their status of arguido was at a lower level, which enabled them with the permission of the PJ. to leave the country and return to their home address in the UK.

This is the lowest measure, that is, any arguido will have some restritive or identification measure, being TIR the lowest one and the only applicable by PJ all the others should come from higher instances, namely a judge. And there is some confusion about their return to the UK. TIR is in no way 'house arrest' nor requires any 'authorization' for travelling. As I said before, the only 'restrictive' aspect is that you must 'tell' the police you'll be away from your residence for more than 5 consecutive days, not 'ask for permission'. So, going back home was not 'authorized' by PJ, it was a simple return to their residence, which is in the UK, not PDL. The TIR applies/ed to Rotheley, not PDL!

Why request to be named arguido? Simple, you can't remain silent if you are a witness, you MUST answer. And you know that say ' Eeverything you say may and will be used against you'. Also, a witness does not have legal support and can't lie. Ordinary people deeply involved in very serious crimes and who are perfectly innocent are not familiar with the 'questioning methods' of police and may very well incriminate themselves. In this case, reqesting to be named arguido a defense, not self incrimination.

About Murat, this status may have been request by him or applied by PJ, it suited the very same purpose: protecting him by allowing him not to respond, even lie, and have legal assistance.
avatar
maria
Grand Member
Grand Member

Number of posts : 1128
Location : Portugal
Registration date : 2008-07-04

Back to top Go down

Arguido or not Arguido?

Post by Royal on Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:26 am

What a strange world we live in, how cultures and legalities vary so differently even within the European union. It's not as if I've ever been in the position of being interogated or questioned by the police, and don't want to be thanks very much. But I do read newspapers and watch television programmes, in other words at my time of life I think I know what goes on in the police stations of most civilized countries! Please don't think I am in any way disbelieving what you say Maria, 'but' I am referring to your remarks that (a) 'You can't remain silent if you are a witness, you must answer! and (b) a witness does not have legal support and cannot lie! Hardened criminals in the UK have a wonderful way of remaining silent, with or without a solicitor, they simply go on repeating "No Comment!" to all the questions put to them! And secondly with or without a solicitor, how do the police insist a suspect "tells the truth"? And even if they know he is lying, what can they do about it if he/she insists in their story! I suppose a difficult uncooperative suspect could sudenly find themselves stumbling head over heels down a stairway, Whoops!
Alroy.

Royal
Star Poster
Star Poster

Number of posts : 858
Location : Manchester
Registration date : 2008-08-09

Back to top Go down

Re: What is an arguido?

Post by bluj1515 on Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:16 am

If a witness does not answer or refuses to answer, I take it they are then jailed or something?
avatar
bluj1515
Grand Member
Grand Member

Number of posts : 1017
Location : United States
Registration date : 2009-06-30

Back to top Go down

Re: What is an arguido?

Post by jean on Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:50 am

It was reported that Kate and Gerry were going to return home days before the arguido status was put on them. The reason they did not go was because the police stressed that they had 'discovered' something of great importance about Madeleine's abduction, and asked them to put off their return to England. Of course, the promise of slgnificant information delayed their return home, and a few days later, instead of being told this important information the arguido status was slapped on them. So as I see it, the PJ tricked the McCanns into staying just that little bit longer so they could interrogate them!!! As we all now know they had no such information.

jean
Master
Master

Number of posts : 474
Location : knutsford cheshire
Registration date : 2008-12-11

Back to top Go down

Re: What is an arguido?

Post by maria on Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:06 pm

Alroy

(a) 'You can't remain silent if you are a witness, you must answer! and (b) a witness does not have legal support and cannot lie!

Under the portuguese law, a witness that does not answer can be made arguido and charged of lack of cooperation, at least. A witness caught lieing is charged of perjury. This means that a witness, if uncooperative, will face A DIFFERENT case, not the original. For instance, if Amaral could prove that ANY of the witnesses did not speak the truth, he could request the prosecutor to start a process against that person, not because s/he may be involved in Madeleine disappearance, but because s/he didn't say everything s/he knew 'to the best of her/his knowledge'.
avatar
maria
Grand Member
Grand Member

Number of posts : 1128
Location : Portugal
Registration date : 2008-07-04

Back to top Go down

MARIA.... ARGUIDO?

Post by Royal on Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:25 pm

Dear Maria, thanks for explaining that situation, how complicated is the Portuguese legal system! Or perhaps I should say 'how diferent' to my understanding of the process of law! Now please do not think I am disputing what you say but it may be difficult for say Amaral to 'prove' that a suspect is lying, after all that is surely what the Judicial system, judges, lawyers and juries are all about, to decide "IF" an accused is lying, up until then I would think that more often than not it is the investigating officers word against the suspects. If say before Apollo 11 the suspect was to say the Moon is made of Cheese, the officer would know he was lying but would not be able to prove it, in the same way as if a suspect says "I was not at the scene of the crime" and there are no witnesses or forensic evidence to prove otherwise. He may know in his own mind that the suspect is lying but he would not be able to prove it would he? That must surely be up to a jury to decide in those sorts of situations? What I am saying Maria is it can't always be possible to actually "know" a person is lying, even though the policeman may feel quite certain that that is the case! Assuming a suspect is charged for "Lying" and is taken to court for that offence and is then proved "Not Guilty" to the charge of "Lying", would that not mean that the suspect could "NOT" then be charged for the "main" offence, that of say burglary or even murder? As I say Maria, in no way am I disputing what you have said but am simply curious and trying to clarify in my own mind about certain practices and procedures in the Portuguese judicial system!
Alroy.

Royal
Star Poster
Star Poster

Number of posts : 858
Location : Manchester
Registration date : 2008-08-09

Back to top Go down

RE: BEING UNCOOPERATIVE!

Post by Royal on Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:45 pm

Sorry to persist in my 'nonesense' Maria but re-reading your last post you say a person can be charged for 'not answering' or being 'uncooperative?" Supposing the suspect does actually answer but not to the satisfaction of the investigating officer, for instance, again the suspect is asked 'were you at the scene?' and the suspect replies "NO" or asks "did you or did you not break into the bank?" and the suspect continues to say "NO" to every question he is asked, he is surely cooperating but not to the qestioners satisfaction? In these sorts of situations it would be totally unreasonable, ridiculous in fact to expect the accused to "YES" to all the questions and therefore admitting guilt even before being tried in a court of law?
Alroy. X

Royal
Star Poster
Star Poster

Number of posts : 858
Location : Manchester
Registration date : 2008-08-09

Back to top Go down

Re: What is an arguido?

Post by Pedro Silva on Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:20 am

The couple was neither uncooperative nor not answering, need I remind you that if Mrs. McCann didn´t answer the PJ questions, it was because her lawyer advised her not to, although Mr. McCann answered to the PJ questions. I hope that this issue of "arguido" is now settled once and for all.

Pedro Silva
Grand Member
Grand Member

Number of posts : 5572
Location : Portugal
Registration date : 2008-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: What is an arguido?

Post by maria on Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:03 am

Alroy

I mentioned the 'witness', not the arguido. A witness can say 'I don't know', can't stay silent or answer 'No comment'. That is the whole point of ASKING for the arguido status from the witness standpoint.

Because, you see, if I approach the police about some crime, I may not know everything about it but I can not refuse to give the evidence I know. There is no 'satisfaction' concept applied to a witness statement. IF there is, then the witness may be named arguido: the police 'suspects' the witness knows more or is more involved than s/he is showing, thus requiring further investigation on the PERSON GIVING EVIDENCE, as well as the crime.

I think this is similar to other countries, including the UK.
avatar
maria
Grand Member
Grand Member

Number of posts : 1128
Location : Portugal
Registration date : 2008-07-04

Back to top Go down

PEDRO SILVA.

Post by Royal on Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:48 am

Good evening Pedro, I'm sorry but I was not discussing Kate and Gerry's position as Arguido's but was asking Maria's advice about the technicalities of the Portuguese legal system, particularly in relation to the witness, suspect and arguido legalities! Thank you Maria for going to the trouble of explaining these matters to me, knowledge is a fine thing!
Alroy. X

Royal
Star Poster
Star Poster

Number of posts : 858
Location : Manchester
Registration date : 2008-08-09

Back to top Go down

Re: What is an arguido?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum