Justice 4 ALL Madeleine McCann Family
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I'd like a second opinion on this ...

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I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by honestbroker on Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:37 pm

And if others see it the same as me, I'd like this thread transferred to a public forum.

When Modnrodder brought us the site gerrymccannsblog of the official files, he acted in good faith. There's absolutely no doubt about that. And in the main, it was a golden catch. But I've long harboured certain doubts, not about Mod, but about the site. The thing that struck me first was that it carries a translation of the buffoon's book! Well OK, that betrays a certain slant. And also I recognised some of the translators as names that figure on the 3As. But again, I was impressed with the quality of the translations and I saw no obvious evidence of other than honest labour in good faith -- until I read the translation of the rogatory letters interview of Jane Tanner. Like others, including Jeremy Wilkins, JT was not entirely of her recollection of events, but was nevertheless singled out for lampooning.

Here's what really shocked me, though -- the testimony of one Stephen Carpenter. And it's not, so much, what he said.

From 3As and Innes we have this:

I'm just over half way translating it. Its a long one... Hope to finish tomorrow.

What impression do you gain from that? Perhaps, someone in the manner of Robert Murat or our very own Maria or Marilyn, at least bilingaul and fluent in Portuguese and English, labouring lovingly over a translation from the files of a rendering of the interview in Portuguese.? Well, no. I'll just take a short extract of the translation from the link below. The key point is not the content but the quality of the translation.

stood in front of the block of Gerry, this has meant that we can concentrate more in that area.

Answer: Yes, particularly because Raj said he felt something unusual and it was not right, and the fact that where they were, the fact the back of the block of flats in front of the apartment of Kate and Gerry, hmm ... and that even discussed the purchase price and how much he paid, but the next morning there were no signs, even knocking on all doors of the apartments that were occupied edos that were unoccupied, did not find anyone, he said, so unusual that we feel someone who was available and cooperating in the search and who lived nearby, were not found the next morning, because as you know, we were not contactable.

So, what are your thoughts now? Perhaps that this is someone who has taken the Portuguese rendering of the statement from the file and run it through google? If so, you're almost there. On the first link you will find the full fruits of Innes' google labour. And on the second (from the file itself) you will find, announced as a google translation, a word-for-word rendering the same as Innes of the (English) translation from the Portuguese original. In other words, our friend not only translated the statement (via google) but has also put that translation on to the file.

I mean! Whatever next? Or am I missing something?

http://the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=27493&p=827067&hilit=carpenter+statement&sid=8aedb514f50f18a5b7fd0159c3afa6ef#p827067

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm

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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by Guest on Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:37 pm

HB, you have a sight that can look through the eye of a needle!! I think I can see what you are saying. I oftern find I have to be careful when reading the files to seperate the interpretors view which is often added from the actual file translation. But from reading this we have evidence that the files have not been lovingly and carefully translated but an application has been used. Such as Google or Babelfish.

I'm just over half way translating it. Its a long one... Hope to finish tomorrow
I'm thinking that sounds like tommorrow is in a hurry really, considering.

stood in front of the block of Gerry, this has meant that we can concentrate more in that area.
Broken English translation.

Was the next bit a comment on the above quote from the files? That bit was in better English if it was also from the files then why was one piece on broken English and the other not? Or was it a poor translation being commented on?

I'll check that particular file and get back to this.

I remember talking to Tinks about trusting these translations. All of them are from seemingly biased translators as far as I can see. That in itself is dangerous. But how dangerous is the question.

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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by Guest on Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:19 pm

Ok what we have here is a Rogatory letter.

The Leicestershire Police carried out interviews of certain subjects on behalf of the PJ. These interviews then translated into Portuguese to the files. Now people translating the files, like Pamalam, have taken these already translated files and used Google to translate them back into English. I don't know if this is the case with all the Rogatory letters or just this one.

Can we trust also that all the files did not use a Google type application to translate?

The point is that, for debate on such an important subject, do we consider a twice translated interview that includes Google or Babelfish as a translation application to be worthy enough to trust in finding something profound?

I think not and I'm not sure if this is what you were thinking also HB?

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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by vee8 on Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:32 am

It is always very dangerous to rely too heavily on any translated document, and I can give a couple of examples, one serious and one comical. Firstly, the Bible.

There are many devout Christians today who insist the Bible is, quite literally, correct, and should be accepted word for word. Unfortunately, during it's history, the Bible as we know it today has been through MANY translations. Originally written in a mixture of early Hebrew and an even older form, Aramaic, it was then translated into ancient Roman, from there to Greek, and then into ye olde Englishe, and if you want to add another, from that to modern English. Devout Christians say that if the Bible states that the world was created in six days, then six days it was, despite modern science proving the Earth evolved over millions of years. But I say the Bible IS literally correct, but ONLY in it's original Hebrew. In Hebrew, the word 'day' is represented by the word 'Yom' which, according to which context it is being used in, can have several meanings, including day, stage, step or an undefined period of time. What the Bible ACTUALLY tells us is that the world as we know it evolved in six distinct periods, which fits almost exactly with what scientests tell us today. (One day I might tell you how the evolutionists and creationists, at loggerheads for centuries, are actually BOTH correct, and there IS no conflict!)

Now, I own a Chinese Motorcycle, a Haotian. (Please, don't laugh, it was cheap!) Here is just one passage, of a great many, from the owners handbook, and I quote.

For the case of jolty and rough road or the road without asphalt, the roadway condition changes often. Under such case, riding becomes unstable. In order to ride safety, please know the roadway condition well, slow down the speed, use proper wrist power, and let your shoulder be free to operate the winker handles.

Clearly written by a Chinese gentleman with no knoledge of English and using a phrasebook! I hope I made my point?!
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RED LIGHT, RED LIGHT

Post by Guest on Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:41 am

Don't trust those rogatory files!! Unless you have a DVD and can cross reference for authenticity.

I found this post on 3A's


roisin
Post subject: How to Locate the Rogatory Interviews Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:22 pm
On Parole


Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:47 pm
Posts: 1464
Location: Itís too big and too serious a burden to be concealed by so many people for their entire lives. ~GA
Interviews posted.

Note that as of this date they remain unsourced (with the exception of Jane Tanner's dowloaded from Duarte Levy site - see bottom of list). Posters have pointed out that they can be cross referenced to the DVD files which ARE sourced and you can make up your own minds regarding their authenticity.

Russell O'Brien
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=26540

Rachel Oldfield
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26889

Matthew Oldfield
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26883

David Payne
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26879

Fiona Payne
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26850

Jane Tanner
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26642

Diane Webster
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=25568

SOURCED Jane Tanner interview:
Jane Tanner's Rogatory Interview (Sourced: Downloads 1-5, Duarte Levy, Downloaded from http://sosmaddie.dhblogs.be/# )

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=26486&p=770949&hilit=+sosmaddie#p770949

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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by honestbroker on Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:56 am

ModNrodder wrote:Ok what we have here is a Rogatory letter.

The Leicestershire Police carried out interviews of certain subjects on behalf of the PJ. These interviews then translated into Portuguese to the files. Now people translating the files, like Pamalam, have taken these already translated files and used Google to translate them back into English. I don't know if this is the case with all the Rogatory letters or just this one.

Can we trust also that all the files did not use a Google type application to translate?

The point is that, for debate on such an important subject, do we consider a twice translated interview that includes Google or Babelfish as a translation application to be worthy enough to trust in finding something profound?

I think not and I'm not sure if this is what you were thinking also HB?

That's the gist, Mod. I'm also concerned that there are, evidently, people who could tomorrow, or today, add things to the file not now there. What sort of quality control is there over the input, particularly given the patent and unalloyed bias of the preamble to Jane Tanner's rogatory interview. There's another section, too, I've seen quoted from these files, again patently biased, and also (if the subject wasn't so serious) comical. For example, the fact that no one commented on anything abnormal or suspicious about Madeleine on the last known day she was seen alive is deeply suspicious? Erm, no it's not! No one saw any suspicious vehicles. Of course, such a vehicle would have the word suspicious daubed in red ink and six-inch high block-capital letters on either side and the roof. That sort of thing ....

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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by honestbroker on Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:04 am

The rogatory letters and the Jane Tanner interview sourced?

Take a look at this:

All seven Britons were interviewed in early 2008, before the Portuguese investigation was put on hold for lack of impartial and brave justice.

In the interests of the public, remembering that justice is always the conquest of civilisation over violence, of appeasement over endless revenge, of stability over chaos, the conversations (yes, it was more like conversations than real interviews) were recorded on video and the transcriptions will be available for download, only in English, at the end of each article. The videos will be opportunely disclosed.


Jane Tanner: selective memory, contradictions and other things....

After 11 months of the investigation, in spite of all that could have been said or done about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, Jane Tanner, one of the Tapas 9, admitted to officer Ferguson of the Leicestershire police that she was mistaken about the arrangement in which the group were seated at the table. An apparently minor detail, but which is now more revealing: "Russell said he was sitting between Rachael and Diane. So, I think, I had Diane there, Russell was there. And I think Dave, I think that Dave could have been there and Fiona there."

Jane Tanner's interview, in April 2008, was recorded on video, to which I have had access and which will be disclosed at the right time in a documentary about Maddie's disappearance.


According to the new seating plan, Jane was sitting "in an anti-clockwise direction," next to Kate, followed by Matthew, Fiona, David Payne, Gerry McCann, Dianne, Russell and finally Rachael.


According to Jane Tanner, in her interview with the British police, Kate McCann was more anxious than usual during dinner on May 3rd 2007, the night of Madeleine's disappearance: "There is something I haven't mentioned (...) she had said that Madeleine had said something strange about where were you last night when I woke up.
And as I said, I can't remember at what point in the meal she said that (...) I think she said "when Sean and me woke up," I can't remember if it wasn't when two of them woke up."


"I wondered, if there wasn't another reason, you know, why the checks were more frequent," Jane Tanner then stressed, indicating that Kate was wondering if Maddie might wake up.

Questioned about the length of time that Gerry was absent from the dinner table, Jane explains: "that would have been at least five minutes, if not more, because, I wonder, because he had left before I actually left there were conversations about whether he had stopped on the way. So, I mean, if, I think it must have been something like five or ten minutes, five or ten minutes after he had left. I can't say for sure though."

"(...) I went back up the road and I can't remember exactly, I know this, I know, I think that Gerry thinks he was in a different place from where I think he was standing, but I was quite sure, as I walked back up the road, they were standing, one of them was on the road and the other was just on the edge of the pavement, but I thought that it was at the side of the road where I was walking, but I know that Gerry thinks they were on the other side. But I think they were closer, because as I passed, I nearly went to greet them in some way and I thought at that moment Oh "they're chatting chatting chatting" and I thought, you know, I didn't, I didn't know if they had seen me or not, but I actually went to greet them and I think if they had been so far away I don't know if I would somehow have almost gone to say hello to them," states Jane Tanner admitting that she and Gerry don't agree about where they found themselves.

"I thought that they were, when you go up here, I thought they were more, euh, once again I know that this is where me and Gerry disagree, but I thought they were kind of closer to the alleyway. I think kind of (...) I think that one of them was on the road and I think, I thought that it was Jez on the road because he had the pram. And towards, I don't know, I can't remember in which direction he was facing. No, I mean, I think I remember that in my statement I said it, but I can't remember now in which direction he was facing.

"And I thought that Gerry was almost on the edge of the pavement or just, just kind of on the road, but certainly kind of alongside it, kind of closer to that alleyway. I don't think they were near the apartment gate, I thought they were kind of a bit further down, further down the road than that," Jane admits to the police, demonstrating - according to one of the British investigators, a quite strange memory.

"Madame Tanner gave a witness statement before the television cameras, she was interviewed by our Portuguese colleagues...now she is incapable of remembering most of the details - the Leicestershire police, however, got her to read her previous statements -, but curiously, she happens to clarify certain key points that agree with the story recounted by the other members of this group," states an officer from the British police after having viewed the videos of the interviews



Then read the rest of that entry:
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

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This site

Post by christabel on Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:15 am

Sorry all,

I have very big problems taking this Pamalan site seriously.
It is made to look like Gerry's blog, which it is not and never has been. You only have to look at the links they give to other sites and see who they are to see their motives behind it.

Looking at this site it is obvious who has done the translations (very bad ones too), and we know what her agenda is.
The translation of Gonc's book is actually hilarious, I think Google may have had a breakdown Laffin
Yes they have the DVD files and some good info, but I have to say I have seen better, much better.
Also as on a lot of forums words are changed to suit the cause. smellarat
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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by Guest on Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:05 am

The trouble is I've never been able to find a site that is neutral with the files translated. pamalam's seemed to be the more neutral of the sites I found them on.

I've always resorted to reading them with a bit of savvy. Sorting the wheat from the chaff.

Why is it the DVD's have been given to anti biased people? Are they released by the PJ or another section of Portugal's law enforcement agencies? Interesting that the PJ have selected who to release them to if it was sourced from them.

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Hey Chris

Post by Guest on Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:13 am

I notice Pamalam has a link to my site on her site. As far a I know I have never had any contact with her...unless perhaps several years ago when I first had a website she may have written to me. But I don't remember her at all.

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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by Pedro Silva on Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:42 am

I just say this: I only trust in the couple McCann, I only trust in ALL those who are assisting them in their search.

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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by christabel on Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:12 am

How interesting!
This is from the people that had the apartment the week before Kate and Gerry

"We noticed that the cleaning personnel entered the apartment after one knock and did not give us time to respond. This was a bit bothersome and for this reason we would lock the door, and would leave the key in the inside lock. After this precaution, the next day, the same thing happened and the cleaning woman entered even though the door was locked with the key in the lock".

So the room could be opened with a key from the outside even when locked and the key left in. smellarat
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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by honestbroker on Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:55 am

Here is another example. It's arguably only minor but it's all indicative:


You'll see from the heading that the interview was on 9 May. Except that it wasn't. It was on 9th April.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

Taking up Vee's earlier point about the use of language, there are subtler influences at work in this blog, too. For intance, the McCanns and their friends ate at a tapas restaurant. But the interviews of employees of that establishment are listed as Tapas Bar. A bar is where you drink, not eat. And finally, I loathe wi th a passion the epithet Tapas 7. The employment of a collective noun followed by a number has subconsious associations with IRA atrocities: the Birmingham 6, the Guildford 4, the Maguire 7 and so on. And in the files we have the tesimonies of the Mccanns' friends as The Tapas 7 Marvellous!

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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by vee8 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:51 am

I take your point about the friends. It has sort of slipped into common usage, and I have to put my hand up and admit I have used the term myself from time to time. But from now on I will make a concious effort not to.
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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by maria on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:08 am

All the files released by the portuguese authorities are in portuguese, even the reports/testimonies of english speaking people. Every single piece. Therefore, any english version will be as close to the 'original' as the degree of honesty of the translator. Translations through google are, always, appalling, and being a non english speaking person, I must admit that I can't understand the texts most of the time before reading them two or three times and translate them word by word into portuguese and adding the not translated bits in place...

Last time I checked (and it was a long ago, sorry) there were seemingly good translations in the mccannfiles site, but they only translated a dozen documents or so, the first reports from the group and some witnesses. Then they started publishing opinions on the files although they did not try to 'say' these pieces were 'the' files. I would suspect that on one hand there aren't many real documents worth that name (30 000 pages in 5 months? of statements? or opinions?) and on the other the ones that are really important they are too dangerous for Amaral theory and practice of chasing after the parents instead of looking for Madeleine.

Without an official translation there should be no confidence in whatever comes to light. Feelings are running too high, the temptation to 'mould' the wording is great, and dangerous.
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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by christabel on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:18 am

Maria,

I couldnt agree with you more. Some translations just fit what the translator wants.

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Chris (earlier post)

Post by maria on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:25 am

There was a somewhat lenghthy discourse/dialog on this somewhere else in the blog, it leads directly to the 'safety' implemented at OC. The maids' procedure is normal, what is not normal is that somehow the keys have been 'tampered'. Or so it looks. It should have been investigated. And security in OC apartments should be verified by the proper authorities, as I believe that the fact that they had installed so high security keys only led to a total lack of security.
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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by Guest on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:29 am

Maria, I think you are right and I have changed my perception of the files in as much as which bits are the files and where do the added opinion start.

Also HB you are quite right about the Tapas having a number added. I have always avoided the number and called them the Tapas group because adding a number felt uncomfortable to me. Even then it sounds like saying 'group' is some sort of organised gang.

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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by honestbroker on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:34 am

maria wrote:All the files released by the portuguese authorities are in portuguese, even the reports/testimonies of english speaking people. Every single piece. Therefore, any english version will be as close to the 'original' as the degree of honesty of the translator. Translations through google are, always, appalling, and being a non english speaking person, I must admit that I can't understand the texts most of the time before reading them two or three times and translate them word by word into portuguese and adding the not translated bits in place...

Last time I checked (and it was a long ago, sorry) there were seemingly good translations in the mccannfiles site, but they only translated a dozen documents or so, the first reports from the group and some witnesses. Then they started publishing opinions on the files although they did not try to 'say' these pieces were 'the' files. I would suspect that on one hand there aren't many real documents worth that name (30 000 pages in 5 months? of statements? or opinions?) and on the other the ones that are really important they are too dangerous for Amaral theory and practice of chasing after the parents instead of looking for Madeleine.

Without an official translation there should be no confidence in whatever comes to light. Feelings are running too high, the temptation to 'mould' the wording is great, and dangerous.

Maria: Do you think there would be any chance of, say, you or Marilyn getting hold of the original, hard copy of the DVD? Is it freely available to anyone who applies?

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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by maria on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:41 am

Oh HB if only I could!!! It was given to people who applied but they had to very well justify their interest and I think they are not allowed to duplicate it!!!
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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by christabel on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:44 am

maria wrote:There was a somewhat lenghthy discourse/dialog on this somewhere else in the blog, it leads directly to the 'safety' implemented at OC. The maids' procedure is normal, what is not normal is that somehow the keys have been 'tampered'. Or so it looks. It should have been investigated. And security in OC apartments should be verified by the proper authorities, as I believe that the fact that they had installed so high security keys only led to a total lack of security.

Maria,

I posted something about this yesterday and I put it in the wrong place (Sadie sent me a PM) It had already been posted.
It was just saying that the maid unlocked the door while it was already locked from the inside and the key left in (A witness statement).

If this happenned and was not invesigated thoroughly it stinks. It could also mean that the Mccanns did lock the door. It gets worse every day and shows the incompetence of the investigators. Was this deliberate???? It certainly makes you think doesn't ?.
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Re: I'd like a second opinion on this ...

Post by honestbroker on Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:34 am

maria wrote:Oh HB if only I could!!! It was given to people who applied but they had to very well justify their interest and I think they are not allowed to duplicate it!!!

Hmmmm! Well, you could always try passing yourself off as BJR, Maria. Strictly in pursuit of the cause, we'd even forgive you if you adopted that ghastly avatar of hers (she's now, thank goodness, abandoned). Anything's worth a try!

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HB

Post by maria on Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:47 pm

Laffin
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A HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO CLAIRESY!!!

Post by Royal on Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:24 pm


HAVE A GREAT BIRTHDAY CLAIRESY, DON'T GET DRUNK, JUST MERRY!!
Love from Alroy. XX

letsparty letsparty letsparty letsparty letsparty letsparty letsparty letsparty letsparty letsparty happybirthday happybirthday happybirthday happybirthday happybirthday happybirthday happybirthday happybirthday happybirthday foryou foryou foryou foryou foryou foryou foryou foryou foryou

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